Monsters in the streets!

[zhai]

I think that luring beasts in town is OK. There is a bit of OOC in it if you just do it for the sake of doing it (as in let's bother those noobs)... but then if your character is completely chaotic I guess it is justified within their RP. However, I wish those behind it would do so they could create a diversion to steal/kill/kidnap/etc something else... that would be more interesting and IC-ly deeper.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

agreed Zhai, when Haag did it she did it to a group of "good" guys who kept killing her for speaking her mind.

Suno; i think invisibility in the future was in the release notes for the current version . . .

I am glad it is possible to do and that karyuu is not pooping on it

now zhai let us get together and come up with a badass rp that uses this in the manner you prescribe

[Datruth]

1) You cannot be held accountable for anything in Yliakum, there are no courts, laws, executives, or legislature. So people really have nothing to worry about.


2) Even if you could hold them liable, there is no proper punishment.
Kill them...... so what, they just spawn back....

3) The guards, currently arn't on duty, being that NPC's arn't working or responding, so I would RP them either Asleep or under some sort of Spell by a God.

Is it just me or does this describe bad RP based on not finished gamemechanics?

1. No laws, no courts? Ofcourse there are. RPwise you'll have to play they do exist and do respond seeing it's obvious from the setting we aren't living in a civilization who would be lacking those. Second OOC we have GMs and rules aswell so wrong on both counts

2. no proper punishment OOC I think you mean. As IC you could get any punishment humanly concievable not disallowed by the setting. OOC there are things like banning. So again wrong at both counts

3. Asleep or Spell by god? Thats just ridiculous. They are standing right there by the gate. Just becuase gamemechanics aren't advanced enough doesn't mean you can just ignore them in RP

All in all rather OOC viewpoints mixed in this "RP" view I have to say. Making the action itself rather OOC aswell and not RP evildoing.

1. Why not open your eyes a bit, EVEN in RP , WE DO NOT HAVE ANY COURTS!!!  I mean come on, If we had courts, why not name off a Few Judges, What their latest rulings were, and What the punishments are.

Sure i've seen some trials, there are even a few threads on here, pics and all of trials, BUT those were created by a few people who wanted to RP with each other.

YLIAKUM ITSELF, has never RP'ed Courts, or judges, or cases, if these ever occured they were between a few players.

And GM's can only do so much, they don't ban at every problem because a BAn warrents a VERY VERY bad crime.

So what do you do, on the mediocre or average crimes, i'll list a few below.


2. THERE ARE no PROPER punishments! That's a FACT!  In Character, if someone goes on a killing rampage, stealing 50 players rogues and also, challenging and killing a few players, WHAT WOULD WE DO TO HIM?

Kill him once? Is that equal to the Deaths and the Kill steals of the other 50? By the way, you cannot ban a player for that.

Or lets say someone joins a guild Secretly as an undercover operative for another guild, He rises in the Ranks, and Finally when he's LEvel 7 or 8, and he has the power to Remove players, He KICKS Them ALL OUT of the GUILD! ALL 100 or so Players, Except for like 5 who are his rank and higher who he cannot kick.

WHAT CAN WE DO IN CHARACTER!!!! WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING! Kill him? So what?

Does that fit the crime?

ARE THERE ANY OOC responses? NO.  Banning, still would not be warrented because AGAIN he was in character and he was doing this for his guild secretly. And it's not that bad of a crime to warrent banning either.


There are VERY few things the GMS can really step in and fix. And Most things IN character NEVER fit the crime.

We have no official Courts. No Judges. No one to Make the Laws, No one to Enforce the Laws. WE don't have anyone to interpret them either.

We do not have a constituition, or a Bill of rights.

IF YOU truly want a court system, get together atleast 100 or 200 people in Planeshift and have them all meet, appoint presidents, judges, and Representatives.

HAve them decide all the laws.

Have them right them down.  Then have them display them in Hydlaa, ojaveda, Mines, Arena, Oja road, Bd road, Bronze gates, EVERYWHERE!

Till then, it's just a few people making a few rules that arn't enforcable BY ANYONE!


3. O.k, Mister you think you are so smart and i'm stupid for RPing it that way.... HOW DO YOU, Rp it?
When you have people RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU who are not responding whatsoever, how do you RP that?

Lets say in real life , someone refused to respond to you and was stuck in one place, not moving. Would you think he was o.k? Ofcourse not!

THE NPC'S ARE NOT RESPONDING TO YOUR WORDS !!! There is a PROBLEM THERE, So therfore you either choose to feel they are o.k or you choose to feel they arn't.

It's obvious they arn't o.k and I rp it that way, I'm sorry you didn't think to RP the same way.

[Karyuu]

Datruth, caps are rude - you don't want to "yell" in a discussion with someone, so don't use them. People read and people will get your point without you appearing as if you need a breath and a time-out.

1. Why not open your eyes a bit, EVEN in RP , WE DO NOT HAVE ANY COURTS!!!  I mean come on, If we had courts, why not name off a Few Judges, What their latest rulings were, and What the punishments are.

People have RPed courts, judges, and punishments since years ago. There have been divorce cases, property cases, criminal cases (even recently) and players have all made this possible themselves and had a blast. Someone else will have to fill in your details - such as names and exact punishments - but I can tell you for a definite fact that such things happened.

Sure i've seen some trials, there are even a few threads on here, pics and all of trials, BUT those were created by a few people who wanted to RP with each other.

Is there a different scenario? People are generally level-headed enough to roleplay together, discuss some possibilities OOC, and come to an agreed-upon conclusion for an event which they then act out.

YLIAKUM ITSELF, has never RP'ed Courts, or judges, or cases, if these ever occured they were between a few players.

Yliakum is only two cities, a fortress, and some hills right now - just because the world isn't complete however, doesn't mean that everything needs to be put on hold.

2. THERE ARE no PROPER punishments! That's a FACT!  In Character, if someone goes on a killing rampage, stealing 50 players rogues and also, challenging and killing a few players, WHAT WOULD WE DO TO HIM?

Nobody "steals Rogues" in-character. That situation is impossible from the start. As for challenging and killing players, it is very possible to corner/surround that character by a large force and roleplay it out. If someone is god-RPing and no solution is possible, you refer that player to a GM or call a GM over and let them have a talk on how to make the game both fair and fun for all sides. Generally, evil characters need to realize that they are not invincible. If they think they are, it's time for an OOC talk.

Kill him once? Is that equal to the Deaths and the Kill steals of the other 50? By the way, you cannot ban a player for that.

Then there are no just punishments in real life either, and your argument falls apart.

Or lets say someone joins a guild Secretly as an undercover operative for another guild, He rises in the Ranks, and Finally when he's LEvel 7 or 8, and he has the power to Remove players, He KICKS Them ALL OUT of the GUILD! ALL 100 or so Players, Except for like 5 who are his rank and higher who he cannot kick.

That's more abuse and less roleplaying. You wouldn't be able to "kick anyone out" of a guild without their agreement - it's a problem with game mechanics more than anything I would think. Regardless, those kicked out players can again challenge, kill, roleplay together, and if god-RPing rears its ugly head again, call in a GM mediator. But there are ways of fighting fire with fire too - let the world know what happened, spread hatred of those who took over, win allies, fight back, etc.

And then, what of those 5 players who are his rank and higher? Won't they restore the order that was before?

3. O.k, Mister you think you are so smart and i'm stupid for RPing it that way.... HOW DO YOU, Rp it?
When you have people RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU who are not responding whatsoever, how do you RP that?

First, chill pill. Second, if people aren't responding to you... why even bother? Are they roleplaying at all? Are they interfering with your game, but don't acknowledge your responses? That's an OOC issue - call a GM, again.

Lets say in real life , someone refused to respond to you and was stuck in one place, not moving. Would you think he was o.k? Ofcourse not!

Bugs happen in this game - they are OOC, so deal with them OOC. People fall from cliffs, run back from the Death Realm, and continue their roleplay as if nothing happened. People get stuck, use /unstick, and continue. So what? This isn't an issue at all.

THE NPC'S ARE NOT RESPONDING TO YOUR WORDS !!! There is a PROBLEM THERE, So therfore you either choose to feel they are o.k or you choose to feel they arn't.[/

It's obvious they arn't o.k and I rp it that way, I'm sorry you didn't think to RP the same way.

I'm sorry that it looks like you think your roleplay is the epitome of how people should act. Roleplay that the NPCs respond. One time when I was with Nilaya and Netrhys, we "brought over" an NPC and pretended he was right there next to us helping with a small task. Use your imagination Datruth.

[Pestilence]

Again in my opinion bad Rp and looking at it wrongly.

Do I know the name of the octarch? No but does this mean the octarch doesn't exist? That I should just ignore his presence in RP? No ofcourse not.

What can you do when someone isn't roleplaying right? I mean come on haven't we just HAD several of those threads? I mean read the thread about godRPing and you'll see that this isn't a new concern. Does this mean the people who do that are in the right? Ofcourse not. It simply means the GMs can't be holding everyones hand every second of the way.

Stealing kills in my opinon is OOC behavior. It's taking advantage of the gamemechanics that noone can do anything aslong as you got in the first hit. I can hardly call that IC crimes so how can I give someone like that who isn't roleplaying at all a IC punishment?

The guild example the same. It's taking advantage of gamemechanics in my opinion, but in this case I am sure the GMs would be a lot more helpfull in atleast restoring the guild then you are letting on here.

We have no official Courts. No Judges. No one to Make the Laws, No one to Enforce the Laws. WE don't have anyone to interpret them either.

We do not have a constituition, or a Bill of rights.

Again yes we do or something similar. Just like the octarch you haven't gotten information about what exactly they are like and how they are called but the setting explains enough to know they are there and roleplaying means following the setting. Not following the setting is by default bad RP. Specially if it's done by choice even.

Bugs are again OOC aswell

How do I roleplay something like the guard for example? Well lets see my latest incident was when I met someone who had been a witness to a murder. Both me and the person in question didn't do bad RP so I ended up dragging her to the guards office and seeing noone was there to the guards at the gates and we Rped she was then questioned by the guards.

Is it easy? No. Does it mean sometimes you have to use a lot of imagination to pull it of and people who also roleplay correctly? yes.

Is it as impossible as you make it seem? A hardfelt NO


Seems Karyuu beat me to it. Read her post first and have to agree with almost everything about it, although ignoring the person is often a better choice then getting in a GM.

[Datruth]

My whole point for all this was simple, if you want courts create them.

I don't think little groups here and there creating courts really does well.

If you truly want to establish a justice system, why not go ahead and enroll people as permenent judges, who can be seen for these matters.

Why not create some sort of constitution.


I can just as easily ask a judge that was just created by a group of players, "Who appointed you?" "What were your previous rulings?" "What are the laws?"
"Are you the only judge? If not then who else are judges? Where is the highest court?"

Most people RP courts incorrectly in my opinion, there is no backstory whatsoever.

The judge is just picked out of no where and they have a trial.

That's not realistic, that's not how it happened before, and they had established courts.

We do not have established courts or laws, and untill we do, no court created by a group of players can RP it correctly.


Our punishments are few in number, besides death, what else can we do?

We can't even force them to Die. We can't force them to give up money?

What if they decide to run away and have their name changed by a GM?

I mean we need more punishments that fit the crimes.

And I believe i roleplayed the NPC's properly, they were not speaking back, and so i felt they were under a spell of some sort.

I feel it worked out for the best and it was more realistic and imagining that they were responding.

~~Datruth

[Karyuu]

I don't think little groups here and there creating courts really does well.

Why not? It has worked since Molecular Blue, if not before even that.

If you truly want to establish a justice system, why not go ahead and enroll people as permenent judges, who can be seen for these matters.

For the reason that the public doesn't elect judges in Yliakum, and doesn't make up official rules. For little crimes (crimes that don't shake up the entire world right now) private courts work fine. What problems have you personally run into during your roleplay?

Why not create some sort of constitution.

The power stems from the Octarch who already has all the rules - and that's for the Settings team to take care of. Players don't have any clue as to what will be officially created in the future that may go against their "home-made" constitutions. It won't last, and many will fight against it for these very reasons. Again though, small private "courts" that rule over single scenarios work fine for people.

I can just as easily ask a judge that was just created by a group of players, "Who appointed you?" "What were your previous rulings?" "What are the laws?"
"Are you the only judge? If not then who else are judges? Where is the highest court?"

Please do. Have you tried this?

Most people RP courts incorrectly in my opinion, there is no backstory whatsoever.

And here is where you are grossly mistaken, and really require asking those previous questions of yours. How many courts have you attended in-game, and really know details about?

What in your opinion would be fair punishment that would fit some of the crimes that you have given as examples? What would an official court, ruled by either players or NPCs and game mechanics do in such situations?

[zhai]

Players need to hold their characters accountable for their actions while participating in RP (which should be pretty much all their time IG). That means that if you RP a thief or a murderer, you can't just walk like any other John Doe down the street. There are guards, there are witnesses and part of your roleplay is to acknowledge the very laws you are breaking. Otherwise you're just a punk. If you don't know the limits of your character's mischiefs you may step too far and break OOC Rules, which would lead to OOC punishments (/mute, ban, etc.).

I think we don't have as many evil characters as we could because some player have a really hard time telling the difference between IC and OOC, and that's sad. A character steals something (redundantly) IC (RPing he's a thief). He's doing his part so the others can have fun too. Don't pester him with /tells or /report him just because you think he's cheating or something, you gotta play your part as well or stay out of it but don't kill the RP if you can't tell it it's an IC crime or an OOC problem.

And if someone drags a monster to town knowing that they will not be facing any IC consequences because they are not RP anything in particular at the time is only poor RP (and it's their problem, no RP to get involved with in the first place). You see an ulber at the plaza, well, react IC (that's the best you can do). Don't get all mad OOC thinking "great, I'm not done buying training from Harnquist!", that is poor RP too. If you're a warrior and capable of killing an ulber you'll do it. If you're not you'll keep a safe distance. And if you're a newcomer (and you're reading this): There is no such thing as Ulberfest or Ulberpride Parade in Yliakum, so please run.

[Datruth]

"And here is where you are grossly mistaken, and really require asking those previous questions of yours. How many courts have you attended in-game, and really know details about?

What in your opinion would be fair punishment that would fit some of the crimes that you have given as examples? What would an official court, ruled by either players or NPCs and game mechanics do in such situations?"

I've only attended one case, which was held at the top of Laanx Temple, in the room  with the two big orbs.

I think currently, the game mechanics DO NOT allow proper punishments.

I hope GM's have the power to deduct money from Players accounts, if they don't, then a few select GM's should get that privelage.

When someone has committed a robery of some sort, they will be held accountable by the Official Yliakum Court, With Official judges, and an Official constitution.

When told guilty, Money will be taken out of the persons Account.

If the person has committed many murders and such, He will be Teleported by a GM to a secure Jail and there he will wait for a period of time.

In this Jail like location, he cannot kill himself and he cannot move. Basically he won't be able to do anything untill his sentance is complete.

And if you do a very bad crime like Kicking all the members of a guild out, you will be Suspended from the game for a certain period of time. Probably a Year.

If you RP that you are raping a women, you will be banned.


In all cases, we need official judges, official constituitions, and help from the Gm's.

Then Yliakum might not be a Wild Wild West like city, where you can do anything you want and get away with it.

[Karyuu]

Maybe we should wait for something like this until more content is introduced? I hardly think that any "murders" committed at this time warrant being punished by a GM in a jail. I think that players are very capable of dealing with such situations on their own right now - and only if there is an OOC issue should they ask for a GM's help. You have a much too strict mentality for a game only at version 0.3.

[Pestilence]

It's more realistic to roleplay problems caused by gamemechanics then to act as if they don't exist becuse if Yliakum would really exist there wouldn't be gamemechanics?

I do get your point Datruth but I don't feel you are listening to my point

Roleplaying is playing a part. In Planeshift this means you have to play someone who is actually in Yliakum for real. Trying to create stories with others to come as close as possible to this living in another world.

And in this world there are octarchs and there are laws and there are judges. Criminals do get caught by the guard and they do get punishment. In this world a word such as gamemechanics may not even exist let alone effect people. This is the true goal in my opinon besides having fun during the process obviously.

So I know it is hard and sometimes you have to stretch things a bit to make things fit and people playing officials is always hard to incorporate, but don't let the people using OOC means to get away wth things make you doubt your own possibilities within the realm of roleplaying.

Read your last post Datruth and I really think you are blending IC crimes and OOC crimes and IC punishment and OOC punishment. GMs taking in money for IC crimes? See thats something you should never have to want. GMs shouldn't have to judge IC crimes. GMs are there to judge OOC breaking of the rules.You shouldn't punish the player for playing an evil person like the jailtime you propose. Why would the player need to be punished for an IC crime? Aslong as he isn't godRPing and leaves people a fair chance to catch him he didn't break any rules.

PS: please don't play an expert and in such general terms if you only visited one such trail as there have been many. Not saying all were succeses, but would expect someone to visit more the one before ccalling it ALL a sham.

[zhai]

I hope GM's have the power to deduct money from Players accounts, if they don't, then a few select GM's should get that privelage.

When someone has committed a robery of some sort, they will be held accountable by the Official Yliakum Court, With Official judges, and an Official constitution.

When told guilty, Money will be taken out of the persons Account.

If the person has committed many murders and such, He will be Teleported by a GM to a secure Jail and there he will wait for a period of time.

In this Jail like location, he cannot kill himself and he cannot move. Basically he won't be able to do anything untill his sentance is complete.

And if you do a very bad crime like Kicking all the members of a guild out, you will be Suspended from the game for a certain period of time. Probably a Year.

If you RP that you are raping a women, you will be banned.

These are all good examples of how OOC is imposed based on RP and it is not good. Don't you see you are punishing good players for their good RP? There is no way to steal, murder or rape IC without a previous agreement between the players. You can walk away from a thief trying to RP they pick your pocket, walk through the rapist or decline a challenge if you don't want to be part of it. However if RP leads to that and is played that way, there should be no OOC punishment. Yes, there should be some sort of punishment IC, but all your suggestions will only make people stay away from the idea of ever playing a slightly evil character and that would kill the game.

OOC misconduct is punished OOC and it has always been dealt with. That's why we have the /report <name> command and other ways... and it's still misused! We don't need more confusion. What we need is agreement! If you do something bad IC, face the consequences: you won't have friends, you will have to RP the life of a runnaway or a convict, those around you will frown at you or attack you verbally or physically but all that is part of RP. We all have a part to play: either we RP being evil and commit "crimes" (bringing something interesting for others to enjoy) or we RP being good and lawful and therefore react to the criminals accordingly. But one thing is OOC bad and another thing is IC bad.

Edit: Oh, balls... Pestilence was faster... sorry if this ended up being redundant but i'll RP i'm a deaf NPC just this once

[Datruth]

Basically, this is what i got from your posts:

OOC crimes, will be dealt with by the GM's.

In character crimes will be dealt with By the players, and we will Pretend that there is a court system, and using this pretend court system we will Pretend to punish them.

Hope i got that right.

[zhai]

Let's just say there's no need to punish RP. We need to keep it consistent thus we RP a punishment... like hiding the character for a while or limiting their actions or something. The punishment though is not the point but the source of entertainment: if we have an execution, for instance, it is something fun to watch and be involved with. It is an IC punishment and it's enjoyed by all.

[Under the moon]

A good roleplayer will take the punishment on themselves, rather than needing one imposed. If not, there is one puishment that can be done right now by players (and sometimes is), and is far worse than any other, in my mind.

Excommunication. Do not speak, nor even acknowledge the existance of a character. Play that they are locked up somewhere. This is not Bad RP if someone commits an IC crime, then expects to be able to walk around the next day as if nothing happened.