Issue with fixing weapons

[LUPEN]

This being a role playing game, It would make sense that a blacksmith should be able to repair a weapon.  It seems ooc to make every character train in weapon repair to fix their wepaon... I currently have a weapon that i can't repair, and i have a leval 6 weapon repair skill...that sucks!  I don't have a problem with finding chars to help me fix my weapon, but that seems too risky at times because nothing make them have to give it back to you.  you should be able to give your weapon to a NPC and the NPC charge you a fee based on the weapon and how bad it is. 

[Bereror]

This is an interesting discussion and I would like to add some more thoughts to it.

In the future skills like lockpicking and pickpocketing will be implemented, which means that there will be more ways to rob items from other characters. Refusing to return the sword that was given to you for a repair is equal to robbery, just using different methods to get the item that you wanted.

This is fine as long as it is IC and both players have fun meaning that the person being robbed has a fair chance to get the item back. Unfortunately it is so easy to turn it into an OOC robbery, since there is nothing that prevents you keeping the item by giving it to your friend, logging out or deleting the character. Or simply telling that you got nothing and the other person is lying.

What I would like to see is a solution that solves all these issues. Like having an extra "owner" tag on every item and some game mechanics that limit the use of items that don't belong to you. Perhaps the item should be automatically moved back to the owner if the robber logs out and NPCs wouldn't buy items that don't belong to you. In the worst case GMs could check your inventory for any stolen items and remove them.

[Pestilence]

hmm well I think that is going a bit far. I mean how do you proof someone stole it anyhow? OK you were the original owner but who says you didn't sell it? Or just left it on the ground and went for a walk?

I don't think it's the job of the GMs to go into those things as they are simply to gray. I think the devs should just make it impossible to steal things OOC with things like repairing. Then if someone has something you owned it is your own fault for giving it to someone or your own fault for dropping it to the floor.

Tes this can mean someone is extreemly rude and I wouldn't steal ulberfurs people are sitting on, but I don't think the GMs should be called on those things either.

[Kiraki]

I prefer that one has the option to choose whether or not to give a weapon back (Thieves have rights to a living as well ).  With a safe repair system thieving has no chance.
However - I do not like the fact that there is no way to retrieve stolen goods – As Niko said you would smash his head and take it back!   I enjoy the “lending” idea and I think it could work rather well, although I would like to suggest a slight modification of that.  Instead of being able to take an item back at any time one should only be able to take an item back after defeating the thief (Items on loan can be found as drops?).  If one is attacked by the owner of the item and you decline the battle the item is automatically returned (Decline would be seen as a defeat). 
After all, if you where foolish enough to be tricked into giving your weapons to a complete stranger who you stand no fighting chance against if they where to try and mug you, do they not deserve to keep it? 

[zhai]

I think that GM intervention in the case of thefts is too OOC. The only way to prevent OOC thefts is to make it really hard to happen. IRL if you get your stuff stolen, you have the possibility of claiming it back if you see the person or people who did it. You can show up with an AK-47 and get your things back or die trying. Something like that should be available but not through OOC.

When a player gives an item or puts it on the ground for RP purposes they are pretty much aware of the item itself: they are "using" it somehow. So it is unrealistic that anyone could just walk by and take it and walk away freely, that's OOC. If they do so, they should be noticed by the owner and the owner should be able to react accordingly. Then maybe a "/watch item" command could be created. It would work something like this:

- When a player takes an item out of their inventory they could right-click on it and activate the /watch item command (before dropping it, if the item isn't dropped within 10 seconds, the command is cancelled). So they don't lose sight of it. The command will be active until the item is placed back into the player's inventory. A player can only watch a limited number of items (one? two? three?).

- Items that are "watched" can be placed on the floor. If another person attempts to steal the item, a window pops up before the item is picked up (yet after the /pickup command has been used). The thief would see a message like this: "You are attempting to pick an item that is being watched and that belongs to someone else. Do you want to steal this item? If you accept you will be challenging <Name of the watcher>" By clicking "No" the item will stay there and it would be as if nothing ever happened. By clicking "Yes", the person watching the item will receive a message like this: "<Name of the thief> is trying to steal from you and has challenged you to a duel. Will you attack the thief?". By clicking "No", the watcher declines the duel and allows the thief to take it. By cliking "Yes" they will fight. The winner loots the item in question from a "Quest Reward" sort of window. This way a very intimidating thief can come along and just take the item, while the guard is unable to stop them, RPing he is intimidated by him or maybe they will argue and fight but the crime will not go unnoticed and will have consequences IC. An automated shout could be added to the action too: by accepting the duel the owner could /shout "Thief!" or a personalized message of the sort.

- When an item is placed on the floor to be watched, more guards can join in. By using the watch command on the item, they would get a "Do you wish to help <Name> watch this item?" message. By clicking yes, they will receive the same message as the owner if any thief dares take the item. Thus, stronger protection can be offered.

- Lending an item to other players is always a risk, just like IRL, and that shouldn't change much. When you lend something to someone else you never know what may happen. They may not wish to steal it but sometimes they just get robbed themselves and then: bye-bye Rolex. If they betray your trust, RP around that. And if you don't know a player that well, Nikodemus' suggestion of a special trade window for /repair should be available. If you just want to show someone your newly acquired sword you can drop and watch the item so the other player can check its stats or use the regular /trade window without clicking "accept". How you decide to do it would be up to you, but each bares a consequence. If you trust they will return the item, it's at your own risk.

This way, robberies would remain mostly IC (you see the oportunity and you willingly commit the crime), and stealing something OOC would only be possible using characteers that trust each other enough to use the "full" /trade window for medium to long term loans, and considering that most players won't steal form characters they consider friends, OOC theft risk would be greatly reduced (probably to the cases like the one I mentioned earlier about someone from dwarvesbane getting mugged, which should be addressed by GMs since it would be totally OOC and mean spirited from its conception).

[Syilph]

In the worst case GMs could check your inventory for any stolen items and remove them.

There are some small issues regarding this suggestion:
1) GMs don't have any way to be certain that the guy complaining that he lost an item, by lending it to somebody, realy lost it.
2) The /takeitem command is restricted to admin 25 so it is unavaileble for most GMs.

@Kiraki: Good suggestion altough a bit tricky to implement

[Datruth]

In a game that is known as "THERE" people actively drop weapons and lose stuff.

That's why there is always a command for the owners to retrieve their weapons.

If you've played the game, you'll know what i mean, so why not implement a system like that?

Press a button and boom your weapons back.

~~Datruth

[minetus]

there is a flaw in that tho, it leads to triangular scams, unless some kind of protection on owned items is set, to avoid circumstances (trades, drops) this protection tho should have a ingame(not real time) time limit to avoid characters getting full of unmoveable items

"player 1" gives item to "player 2" for repair.
"player 2" sells weapon to "player 3".
"player 1" gets his item back.

[Datruth]

there is a flaw in that tho, it leads to triangular scams, unless some kind of protection on owned items is set, to avoid circumstances (trades, drops) this protection tho should have a ingame(not real time) time limit to avoid characters getting full of unmoveable items

"player 1" gives item to "player 2" for repair.
"player 2" sells weapon to "player 3".
"player 1" gets his item back.

You haven't played "There" then.

Player 2 would not have the capabilty to sell it to player 3, yes he maybe able to drop it, or to give it to player 3.

But the second player 1 requests his weapon, he gets it back.

The game will not ALLOW player 2 or anyone else to sell it, because they arn't the owner.

I don't know HOW the game knows this.... it just does, ask the makers of the game i just mentioned.

Maybe they'll clue us on, but basically it's fool proof.

[Syilph]

there is a flaw in that tho, it leads to triangular scams, unless some kind of protection on owned items is set, to avoid circumstances (trades, drops) this protection tho should have a ingame(not real time) time limit to avoid characters getting full of unmoveable items

"player 1" gives item to "player 2" for repair.
"player 2" sells weapon to "player 3".
"player 1" gets his item back.

The whole point of this "owner" flag is to prevent another player for selling/trading the item in any way, as Bereror stated. So that might rule out your hypothesis. The player that got an item trough this mean would be able to repair a weapon, fight with it, play with it, pick his teeth with it but he/she won't be able to sell it, trade it or drop it.

@Dathruth Noo need for clues, the developpers of PlaneShift are quite capable of doing this but it is only a question of time, priority and will

[Bereror]

All good ideas, but I would like to see a generic solution that solves all the current problems and also could be used in the future when pickpocketing, lockpicking and perhaps looting other characters killed in a PvP is implemented. Having the extra "owner" field attached to the item was one idea.

Here are the different ways how one could get your items:

• Lending - You give the item away for repairing or for any other reasons, but they refuse to return it;
• Dropping - You drop the item, but somebody picks it up and walks away;
• Robbery - You store the item in your house or a chest, but somebody breaks into the house or lockpicks the chest;
• Pickpocketing - The item is in your inventory, but somebody steals it;
• Looting - The item is looted after killing you in a PvP battle;

Most of it is not implemented, but it doesn't mean that we can't think about an universal solution that would speed up implementing these skills and features. So keep going with your ideas

@Syilph The "owner" flag would be visible to GMs when they inspect the player's inventory. But the GM intervention should be needed only if game mechanics fail and there is no other way to solve the conflict.

[minetus]

looting:
when it comes to looting dead pcs there are big possibilitys of equipment being damaged during the fights, i'd tink having "broken items" avaiable for this circumstances would be good.
"broken items" example: broken armor, sword blade, handle, piece of leather. this broken items could be later sold or used to manufacter/enhance/repair items.
this would make it fair for both winner and loser.
the amount of items won could be decided by the amount of durability lost in the equipment during the fight.

lending,droping,robery,pickpocketing:
if pocesser of the item is stronger then the real owner a authority figure would be needed for this.. police,militia, guards or whatever. that could issue a returning item or what threat, bounty hunters type could be involved depending on item value since not every thing may have the value to involve more then 1 person in a "man/item hunt".

pickpocketing:
force duel on thieve from victim part to stop the thieve, if thief succeds in pickpocketing could be a option for those brave and fast enought

[Syilph]

Here are the different ways how one could get your items:

• Lending - You give the item away for repairing or for any other reasons, but they refuse to return it;
• Dropping - You drop the item, but somebody picks it up and walks away;
• Robbery - You store the item in your house or a chest, but somebody breaks into the house or lockpicks the chest;
• Pickpocketing - The item is in your inventory, but somebody steals it;
• Looting - The item is looted after killing you in a PvP battle;

Most of it is not implemented, but it doesn't mean that we can't think about an universal solution that would speed up implementing these skills and features. So keep going with your ideas

@Syilph The "owner" flag would be visible to GMs when they inspect the player's inventory. But the GM intervention should be needed only if game mechanics fail and there is no other way to solve the conflict.

Ok, still sticking to the "owner" flag, this would be a way to deal with the issues listed there:
1) Lending: A special type of trade would be required for that in offer to keep the initial ID of the owner in the "owner" flag. Let's say  a new command like /lend instead of /trade.
2) Dropping: The owner flag remains the same for 1 minute [or more but I can't think of a reason for more time] and then it gets reset to null. This would allow everybody to pick up an item and prevent accidental dropping.
3) Robbery: The owner flag gets reset to null and/or charged with the name of the new owner. If you get robbed you get robbed. Tough luck
4) Pickpocketing: Same as point 3).
5) I don't know about looting corpses, that would be pretty normal in a PvP environment, I guess. So, if you get killed and looted, the owner flag will get the new owners ID. Looting corpses would also solve the issue or a thief pickpocketing you. As soon as the thief will rob your house or pickpocket you, the status of duel requests will turn to auto accept. In other words, you might kill him whenever you want to and take back your item(s). In addition to this, maybe a small sign should indicate the other players that you are a thief.

As far as the owner flag being visible to GMs is concerned, I think that would be a good idea.

[Nikodemus]

The flags and possible char ownership history are need in all above, not for the players to know, but for the system to know and possibly for GMs. Lets face it, every item is different, even if in your inventory you see 2 daggers. They are not the same. This is a proof if someone claims some item was stolen from him.
Also, it isn't like that if someone took someone else item in no matter in what situation, he is free to go. In each of 1) - 5) situations, the real owner may request the item back and if he identify the thief he may ask for help guards who will explain the situation with someone who can see the flags. I repeat. No item is the same and if it was used often by you, you will see the differencies.

[Pestilence]

hmm agree you might be able to identify it but does this mean you would be able to get it back?

I mean just saying it was stolen and saying you recognize something wouldn't get you back much in RL when it is stolen. It's your word against that of the thief and don't see the guard doing anything unless there is more proof then just your word.

Also I don't like the idea of not being able to sell things that have an "ownerstamp". I mean how do you RP that? A blacksmith might not buy a dagger becuase it has a famous stamp of nobility but otherwise he isn't going to refuse buying a dagger unless it's a known thief and even then there would still be blacksmiths a bit more shady who might give less money for it but would still buy it nonetheless.

Things like repairing should be done in trade without actually giving people your weapon, but lending a sword to someone is at your own risk just as it is in RL. In RL if you lend your Ipod to someone and he goes and sells it. You are screwed to. I mean how do you proof that it is your Ipod? You wouldn't have a leg to stand on unless your Ipod was photographed with you standing on the picture aswell with it having a distinct feature and you having the reciept and even then the thief can stll say things like you sold it to him or he simply had an Ipod aswell that was similar and you are mistaken in him borrowing yours.

No not having to give someone an item for the use of skills? Yes, but no strange OOC things to get things back you have lend to someone for normal use.