Sheaperding

[Mindari]

IMHO the idea is simply to complicated to work. first, you would need absolutly killer AI to make a herd of livestock behave realisticly. secondly: what happens when the player is offline? thirdly: in real life it isnt physicaly possible for one single person to drive a herd of livestock, you would need a team of people or an equivelent of a sheep dog. forth: what happens when someone kills your herd for the XP or phat lewts. fifth: where is the appeal in spending hours of game time stuck with a load of sheep following you.. you would want to loose them sooner or later

[The Shadow Nose]

Actually, its not too difficult to create realistic flocking behavior. http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/ and http://www.vergenet.net/~conrad/boids/pseudocode.html both have information on 'Boids' which are an easy way to simulate flocking behavior.

It basically works by having each individual in the group head in the average position its neighbors are heading, keeping some distance to avoid running into neighbors and obstacles, and staying near the average position of neighbors so as not to dissipate the flock.

Its pretty neat-looking, though I haven't visited Craig Reynolds in a while and some of the links may be dead.


As for people killing the sheep. Either have the sheep cheap to replace [i.e. create them with a spell, or something else. Basically have a moving spawn point of some kind that moves with the flock to replace killed members] or make each sheep unkillable with a "You cannot attack this sheep" message.

As for what happens when you get bored... either store the sheep somewhere, remove them, or let them wander around as killable monsters.

Frankly, I'd like to have some way for monsters to appear in places other than the precise spots they are spawned now.

[Gondric]

when you log out/get bored u could dismiss them like pets but they appear in a paddock which every city will have. you wont see your actual sheep in the paddock but just a few random ones. you pay the paddock owner and he gives you your sheep back. same could go for mounts as in a stable you pay to have your mount stored there.

[Nikodemus]

Actually, its not too difficult to create realistic flocking behavior. http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/ and http://www.vergenet.net/~conrad/boids/pseudocode.html both have information on 'Boids' which are an easy way to simulate flocking behavior.

It basically works by having each individual in the group head in the average position its neighbors are heading, keeping some distance to avoid running into neighbors and obstacles, and staying near the average position of neighbors so as not to dissipate the flock.

Its pretty neat-looking, though I haven't visited Craig Reynolds in a while and some of the links may be dead.


As for people killing the sheep. Either have the sheep cheap to replace [i.e. create them with a spell, or something else. Basically have a moving spawn point of some kind that moves with the flock to replace killed members] or make each sheep unkillable with a "You cannot attack this sheep" message.

As for what happens when you get bored... either store the sheep somewhere, remove them, or let them wander around as killable monsters.

Frankly, I'd like to have some way for monsters to appear in places other than the precise spots they are spawned now.

Ahhhh, this so much computer game approach. I suppose with you, we will always remember that it is after all only a trivial game, why would we ever want to make it realistic and RP friendly place while we can make it place of simple game solutions?

Your post is lacking a bit of the realism approach. You don't give realistic reasons why do it the way you wrote. I'm not saying this post is unworth, but  lacking a lot.

[grenkar]

I liked shodow nose's idea for spawning creatues.  It would allow powerful mages to distract their enemy with a ferocious beast while they pummel them with pwerful magic.

I like the idea of corals or what not. I would have said it if no one did.  I thought that a crook might be used to give you the ability to make a certain animal follow you.

I suppose that a flute or something like that used to command the sheeps would be helpful.  It would help you hand off your sheep to friends for a short period of time while they could control their own sheep as well.

Of course, like it's been stated, they wouldn't have to be sheep. Just the Yliakum substitute.

I think that perhaps at the gates to towns they would only allow you to bring in a given amount, one to three sheep, while you leave the rest in a corral.  If you need to move your entire flock through town, it'll have to happen three at a time.

[RayvenD]

Ahhhh, this so much computer game approach. I suppose with you, we will always remember that it is after all only a trivial game, why would we ever want to make it realistic and RP friendly place while we can make it place of simple game solutions?

Your post is lacking a bit of the realism approach. You don't give realistic reasons why do it the way you wrote. I'm not saying this post is unworth, but  lacking a lot.

and shooting mystical arrows from above your head is real? Or how about standing in the same spot and killing the same creature over a hundred times without having to hunt out a new one? I thought his post had some valuable stuff there, he came up with an idea of how to generate herd behaviour, and as for realism he mentioned about having mosters spawn in locales different to the one they always spawn in. i don't see you coming up with any ideas worth even a tiny percentage of his post. and as for rp, in roleplay you don't just stand and wait whilst a creature 'spawns' in front of you, but i challenge any player to say they havent camped a spawn before. and also, this IS a computer game, it will never be a roleplaying game in the sense of tabletop games, why? because there are visual things in this game which reduce the need for imagination.

[shlainn]

The idea of herding sheep (or any other cattle) is quite intreaguing...

Yet I agree, that cattle does not belong into town (for the reasons mentioned above). So maybe there could be an cattle market event outside the town every month(ior week), where one could trade cattle?

Another problem mentioned is, where to leave the flock if you get bored with herding them. I'd suggest just to leave them somewhere on a meadow, guarded by some kind of sheepdog (pet? summon?) which keeps the flock in place and protects it against attackers.
Or maybe go to a farm and leave them there (having paid a small donation to the farmer, of course)...

Shlainn

[The Shadow Nose]

Ahhhh, this so much computer game approach. I suppose with you, we will always remember that it is after all only a trivial game, why would we ever want to make it realistic and RP friendly place while we can make it place of simple game solutions?

Your post is lacking a bit of the realism approach. You don't give realistic reasons why do it the way you wrote. I'm not saying this post is unworth, but  lacking a lot.

and shooting mystical arrows from above your head is real? Or how about standing in the same spot and killing the same creature over a hundred times without having to hunt out a new one? I thought his post had some valuable stuff there, he came up with an idea of how to generate herd behaviour, and as for realism he mentioned about having mosters spawn in locales different to the one they always spawn in. i don't see you coming up with any ideas worth even a tiny percentage of his post. and as for rp, in roleplay you don't just stand and wait whilst a creature 'spawns' in front of you, but i challenge any player to say they havent camped a spawn before. and also, this IS a computer game, it will never be a roleplaying game in the sense of tabletop games, why? because there are visual things in this game which reduce the need for imagination.

Heh, its not a big deal. As a matter of fact, I do tend to think of things more of a game-play approach than a role-playing one. I spend alot of time at the www.gamedev.net  Game Design forum under the same name. Plus I've never played a tabletop RPG (parents heard Dungeons and Dragons was a 'tool of the devil' and stuff. Total rubbish now that I've read info about it)


Anyway, I'll keep tossing ideas out. Take em with a grain of salt and feel free to modify them however you want, it's pretty unlikely that I can actually help implement these ideas.

Anyway, test idea on the herding idea that may fit in with the present Planeshift system:

//Warning: really long post//

Getting the monsters:

1. After taking a quest, a player gets a special glyph used to spawn certain monsters. Best to start with rats at first because they are unlikely to kill enyone and don't give much loot you can get rich off of.

2. With sufficient levels in magic (I think its Brown way that says stuff about summoning... but not sure) the wizard can cause a rat to spawn. Personally, I think the rats should be wild by default. The rats would act exactly as if they had just spawned in that spot naturally. Could just as easily attack the caster as anything else.

3. The cost of spawning a rat (as a low-level monster) should be about the same level of difficulty as training to make iron ingots. You would have to do alot of training before you get to that point. Plus the cost of spawning one should allow for several to be made in a row but not so much a constant stream. (I think it costs 8mp to cast 'summon missile' perhaps 'spawn rat' cost 24mp, an experienced mage might be able to summon 1 or 2 before needing to take some cool-down time... or if you need to use up an item like 'rotten meat' to spawn one then lower the mp value or something.)

4. So basically, the caster spawns a perfectly normal rat that can be attacked, killed, and looted just like any other rat. Any control or 'herding' would have to work thorough a different set of skills. Theoretically, a wizard could summon an Ulbernaught at his side... but he would probably be in more danger than anyone he plans to attack since hes right next to an Ulber.

5. Once the basic code for a 'spawn monster' spell is in place. You could add something like eggs which would basically sit around and after some hours or conditions would cast 'spawn monster' and vanish. Carry a bunch of tefusang eggs in your pocket without boiling them and you could get trouble.

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Herding the monster:

1. Have a skill for monster herding possibly charisma based. possible commands:

/lead - if sucessful the target monster follows you, (similar if you target a monster, attack and them move away. But the monster doesn't attack when it gets close) possible upgrades in code could make the monsters detect eachother instead of bunching together.

/stop - makes the target stop following you. Both for monsters you are leading and ones that are chasing you to attack... useful survival skill.

/orderattack - makes monsters following you attack the target. You get no xp from their attacks but if you join in you could get some.

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 Note that I don't include any ideas on adding special houses or NPCs that deal with herding... the way I see it the animals either get traded to another before you log off, get killed when you tire of them or get traded to others after a bit. Trading basically has you say '/stop' to the animal and then the other tells them to '/follow'. No protection is given the herd so mean adventurers can kill your herd unless you stop them somehow. (don't know how you could other than saying "stop! thats my herd!" could add some Role-playing)


Okay, I know that this would require alot of coding to get to work (even simple stuff like this) here are some possible benifits.

1. The awsomeness of herding.
2. I don't think any other MMORPGs have this feature even to this level.
3. Would allow players to decide where monsters appear on the fly.
4. Role-play:

Rat-herders move their flock about, multiply them and butcher them as needed, sell the animal parts in town and gain a little xp during the process (after all, the rats would still fight back when being attacked) Also, herders would want to move about and possibly avoid rustlers who want to hurt or steal their flock.

Evil sorcereres can summon monsters to wreck havok (since you really can't cause havok any other way) could add some spice to sessions since the bad guy can initiate combat without people getting sent to the DR. Theoretically there could be an attack on Hydlaa or Oja this way... though with server load and stuff it could be a problem. Fortunatly, planned events could be controlled and unplanned attacks the monsters could probably be easily killed without much damage to players (why I keep mentioning rats)

Training camps could have monsters summoned to train newer players without depriving others of the regular spawn locations. Seriously, an organised military or law enforcement would have some way to train their ranks outside of real combat. Could also do something for arena events.

5. Eh, powerleveling. Okay, lots of people may say that its a bad think but I personally don't. If I want to get any decent amount of xp to learn something like metallurgy or mining I know quite well that I need xp to train in that. So I will seek out an idea monster and sit there for hours killing the stupid thing over an over to get the xp. If more people come, I let them join in because powerleveling with friends is better than doing it alone. If monster spawning characters can help out others a little in this way I see no problem, players could even talk to eachother during the time when the players mp is charging.

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disadvantages:

1. server load - yes, letting people spawn monsters would put load on the server, probably alot more than just littering.

2. If people can summon Ulbers, it could get people hurt, if Ulber spawning is allowed it should cost significant mp and use up some items... like 20 steel bars or diamonds or something... tempted to say 1 ulbernaught hide but it sounds kind of odd. Spawning 1 ulber in town might not be too bad since alot of people could gang up and take it out with missiles or something and new players could be warned... but 2 or three is just plain unfair to people unless there was a planned event. Having GMs use GM powers to kill them also seems a bit cheap. So if at all implemented would need balance to avoid problems like that.

3. Eh, lots of monsters getting spawned and then left out in the wilderness taking up server resources? Add a way for hunters to track down monsters from far off an it could be fun. Or the server just cleans them out like other junk.

4. People using the herding mechanic to steal normaly spawning monsters and then leading them off into the wilderness so people can't find them. Not sure how to combat this other than making wild monsters hard to lead away from their spawn point...

5. Players killing a Herders herd - either let it happen and consider it a part of RP. (could create a new type of ettiquite for MMORPGs) Thats one reason I would prefer herdable animals to be normal monsters and the cost of spawning them at start to be somewhat cheap. To allow Herders to replace lost animals if accidents happen.

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Gah, this was a really long post. Sorry about rambling like this. Hope this helps anybody.

[grenkar]

 

Carry a bunch of tefusang eggs in your pocket without boiling them and you could get trouble.

Didn't realize tefusangs layed eggs.  Maybe just clackers, anyways eggs would be good.  Like in Godzilla 2000.  You could put a bunch of Trepor eggs in the sewers of Hydlaa, and when they hatch the citites in trouble.

It would be nice to have PlaneShift be the only game with herding, best make sure no forum spies from other games are around.

[shlainn]

The Shadow Nose: I can already hear the traditionalists cry: POWER-LEVELING 

I think the monsters you herd should not be summoned. Reason: See above. They should be bought somewhere (farm?) and then looked after, as they are kind of a long-term investment. The whole herding thing should be more longterm, anyway. So you can travel around with your flock, look for good feeding grounds, protect them against monsters, ...
And in the end you can take their wool/meat/milk/eggs/fillinsomeproduct. But you gotta work for that. Not just take some sheep for a stroll and they give you milk. 

Shlainn 

[The Shadow Nose]

The Shadow Nose: I can already hear the traditionalists cry: POWER-LEVELING 

I think the monsters you herd should not be summoned. Reason: See above. They should be bought somewhere (farm?) and then looked after, as they are kind of a long-term investment. The whole herding thing should be more longterm, anyway. So you can travel around with your flock, look for good feeding grounds, protect them against monsters, ...
And in the end you can take their wool/meat/milk/eggs/fillinsomeproduct. But you gotta work for that. Not just take some sheep for a stroll and they give you milk. 

Shlainn 

Thinks...

Thinks some more...

Heck, you've got a point there. Yeah, having animals as a long-term investment would be pretty neat. Bit more realistic than my 'instant animal' approach.

Suggestions:

1. I imagine that raising creatures to fight for XP would be one of the biggest businesses a herder could get into. [well, I suppose you could go to the arena and kill the same Trepor over and over for hours for free... though actually where the heck are those Trepors coming from? Who runs that stupid Arena? Stupid free monster raising place... run poor little monster ranchers like me out of business before I even get started *sniff* ]

2. Yeah, I suppose getting eggs and wool from animals could be profitable and fun, there are easier ways to make money but if the products have a good use then it could be worth it. It would be hard for an adventurer to go out and find wooly animals in the wild to shear.

3. Hmm... perhaps instead of killing wild animals someone could capture them and take it to their ranch or something. Then Fatten it up... I mean raise it lovingly to get produce from it.

4. There would need to be some way to keep track of who 'owns' the animal , for trading and other purposes. Perhaps upon getting an animal, you also receive a certificate showing you own it. If you drop, trade or sell the certificate than legally you transfer ownership of the animal. If guilds could be recognised as legal entities you could possibly transfer ownership of the animal to a guild, and guild members would have the ability to use them in occordance with how the guild is set up. [I.E. a guild keeps a stable of horses or whatever it is people ride. If a persons rank in the guild allows it they can ride any of the horses for free but cannot sell or trade them. Others may have authority to sell the animals in a guild] If the certificate is destroyed the animal goes wild, if the animal is killed the certificate either disappears or shows that the animal was killed.

5. Animals would reproduce in some way [even if it only happens when you give them certain foods] Clackers and Trepors may lay eggs that hatch and mammels may just spawn low-level young near themselves. Animals would have to 'grow' given time or being fed. A good business could result in collecting feed to sell to Herders, or Herders could sell the eggs and young if they don't want to take care of them.

6. Though it still would be nice to raise an army of monsters to storm Hydlaa... would take some real work. Perhaps people could raise Ulbernaughts, Tefusangs, or other tough monsters, but it would be really risky to raise a lot of them and the authorites would have laws against bringing the into city limits. Have guards posted at the gates to stop them.


Yeah, this sounds like a bit of a better idea than my first one. Thanks Shlainn!

[Croconil]

I would be most content if I were able to purchase a flock of sheep and travel the countryside of Yliakum finding them fields to graze in and watering holes to drink at.  I think that I would even be benificial to create a new skill for it.  If there were a skill for sheaperding, perhaps you would have to train a level before you could make a sheep follow you.  As you progress further perhaps you could learn how to tend to a pregnant ewe or shear your sheep to sell their wool to a textile merchant.  Indeed this would also create the source of a textile industry with weaving and sewing.

I imagine that each individual sheep could work like a familiar.

I just thought it would be a very nice aspect/proffession for Plane Shift to have.  Of course, it wouldn't neccessarily have to be sheep you were herding.  It could be any sort of animal that might be found in Yliakum, as long as it's not something to farfetched.  I certainly wouldn't want to be a trepor herder, that would just be weird.

Wow. I like this idea. Very unoriginal.

[Phinehas]

@Shadow Nose: I just wanted to say that I'm insulted at the insinuation that any wizard would stand around summoning rats so that they could be made into a herd. It will never happen.

[Quitarias]

i have say that in order for eggs to be realistic there would have to be baby tefs an other creature babies
i mean think you cary a tef egg with you around and sudenly it transforrms into a creature bigger than you
as for the whole sheep hearding idea i think that you would need a farm to have animals because they need a warm place to sty when sick and the midleages had a great lack of vets
as for creature summoning even if they did impliment that i think you would have to do it as a ritual and you would need parts of the rat to make it beacause creating life isnt a joke (those that saw full metal alchemist will know what im saying)and just summoning a rat would be an amazingt achievment where as summoning an ulber would take multiple mages working together and it would takke substancial offerings so i think there will be more like "yes i managed to summon a rat by myself" and everyone knows not to mess with you........

[Croconil]

i have say that in order for eggs to be realistic there would have to be baby tefs an other creature babies
i mean think you cary a tef egg with you around and sudenly it transforrms into a creature bigger than you
as for the whole sheep hearding idea i think that you would need a farm to have animals because they need a warm place to sty when sick and the midleages had a great lack of vets
as for creature summoning even if they did impliment that i think you would have to do it as a ritual and you would need parts of the rat to make it beacause creating life isnt a joke (those that saw full metal alchemist will know what im saying)and just summoning a rat would be an amazingt achievment where as summoning an ulber would take multiple mages working together and it would takke substancial offerings so i think there will be more like "yes i managed to summon a rat by myself" and everyone knows not to mess with you........

Oh God My Eyes!