Author Topic: Rant! They have done it again...  (Read 4053 times)

Haanz

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Re: Rant! They have done it again...
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2006, 03:19:16 pm »
hahah jeeze... I better catch up on my Canadian history...or just... pay more attention to politics! ubt that's hard being in Japan. Now, here is where i'd talk about Japan's parties, if I knew about them... but sadly i pay less attention to politics here than I did in Canada... 'course I'm enojoying this thread!! :thumbup: :sweatdrop:
the Teakettle...

Baldur

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Re: Rant! They have done it again...
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2006, 04:07:10 pm »
Get, integrated :P

That's what's the main problem is. people decline to get integrated(some, i'm not blaiming everyone). The question is, stricter immigration laws or stronger integration laws. I vote for the last.

Thyme

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Re: Rant! They have done it again...
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2006, 04:22:52 pm »
[Rant] Our laws have been bent and rewritten to accommodate the newcomers. What once was a strong free nation; we have become a wish-wash of people pleasers. In the last 50 years our immigration laws have been rewritten many times, to accept more and more people. In many of our large cities non-immigrants are the minority. Our ever so patriotic politicians see this, and change our laws to suite the new demographic, so they will get more votes. They ignore our customs and traditions that made this country, and replace it with those of our new citizens.

I really disagree with this.  The reasons many people have worked hard to change Canadian immigration law is because those laws were (and still are to a certain extent) racist.  I can point to dozens of scholarly books that discuss the ways that Canadian immigration law was meant to keep out people of colour, except as non-status labourers (which means they can come in to work, but can't have citizenship or any rights) until the immigration laws changed in the 60s & 70s.  Since then, there has actually been a lot of restrictions that have been added to the Canadian immigration laws.  Restrictions on money, class, language, etc... so that still today, a certain type of person is favoured.

Also, I would like to point out that Canada is a settler colony... Most of Canada is still under dispute as land stolen from the indigeneous people, who are still being colonized and oppressed by the colonial state.  This "our" culture that you're talking about is a myth of a cultural standard of people of European descent.  Because this is a settler nation, the only people who were "here first" are the native people.  Everyone else, including those of European descent, immigrated here at some point.  I would also like to point out that Europeans were not the only ones to immigrate to Canada early on, and that Africans and Asians have also been part of early immigration to Canada.  Just because the dominant group is of European descent, does not mean it is the "legitimate" culture that other people should come and assimilate to.  Canada has never been a "strong free nation", it has been a nation that has grown through the exploitation of various peoples over time.

That said, I am happy to live in a country like Canada, where democracy still means something, and where people can mobilize and pressure our governments to make changes that are more socially just and less oppressive.
I also think it's really wonderful that Canada is a place where so many people from so many different cultures (both from other countries AND cultures & subcultures that are more commonly thought of as being American/Canadian) can live together, experience each others cultures, address problems, and all grow and develop from it.  Cities like Toronto, where over half the population comes from recent immigrant backgrounds, makes for a culturally rich city.  Montreal as well, has benefitted from being so culturally diverse, but all the good things that come from diversity mean nothing if we don't have laws that protect the rights of EVERYONE to have free expression and live without oppression.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 04:26:01 pm by Thyme »

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Baldur

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Re: Rant! They have done it again...
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2006, 06:18:47 pm »
Very well spoken Thyme. You've found words I couldn't find in similar situations. Immigration rules are often the ones that strike me. I've never understood the word immigration. As integration doesn't work the same way in Canada as in Sweden(been here for the last 10.000 years :]) i'm simply going to aim it at Sweden and let Thyme and Laragorn discuss things further, personally I think Thyme's got a good point. Though it can be a dilemma with so many Europe-descendants in power.

Back to the Swedes, shall we? To stay fairly on-topic this includes the Sweden democrats. The best way to keep Sweden, immigrated upon every day, healthy we'll need better integration laws for the immigrants who get asylum, and of course faster responses to those who don't. Thing is, today, many do not want to  get integrated and therefore get stuck in this maelstroem. Immigrants feel they're left out of the society because they decided not to take Swedish classes.

So, what will make it more enjoyable to learn, or what do we have against integrating?

LARAGORN

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Re: Rant! They have done it again...
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2006, 07:04:10 pm »
I am aware of the skelitons in Canadas closets, child slavry(we got boatloads of orphans from europe), blatant Native opression and the list goes on (show me a country that doesnt). I also understand the settler based history. I am a mixed race Canadian, my GreatGreatGrandfather came to Canada in 1870 from (get this, Im not making this up) Sweden. On my fathers side is mostly Native. So in no way am I in a position to have any judgement on Race. I also know of the racist laws that where in place before some major changes were made. I was not refering to those in my last post. I do know that a lot of the racist laws were ignored aswell. Canada was the destination for most on the underground railroad. Because of that we do have a rich history of prosperous African/Canadian's.
End of my Canadian Babel  ::|

Back to the Swedes, shall we? To stay fairly on-topic this includes the Sweden democrats. The best way to keep Sweden, immigrated upon every day, healthy we'll need better integration laws for the immigrants who get asylum, and of course faster responses to those who don't. Thing is, today, many do not want to  get integrated and therefore get stuck in this maelstroem. Immigrants feel they're left out of the society because they decided not to take Swedish classes.

So, what will make it more enjoyable to learn, or what do we have against integrating?

They should have to take classes. If they want to stay in Sweden, then they should learn the history of the country. Being accepted in a society you know nothing about is almost imposible. As has been said already, knowledge is they key factor.

All great truthes begin as blasphemies- SHAW
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Vengeance

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Re: Rant! They have done it again...
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2006, 07:42:15 am »
The small problem with the "take classes" solution is that in the case of the London bombings, the foiled UK airline bombings, the Spanish bombings or the murder of Theo Van Gogh in Holland is that the attacks were committed by people who were actually treated quite well by the country.  Good education, nice middle class upbringing, citizenship in most cases, etc.

Regarding the poster who wanted to move from Sweden to Holland, I'd suggest you look at this link before you decide it is so great there... :http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=1&story_id=19065

On the other hand, they agree with you on assimilation--of Dutch people into Sharia law...
http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/dutch-justice-minister-sharia-law-ok-if-people-want-it

Apparently the Dutch Justice Minister believes that a simple 2/3rds vote would make stoning of gays to death fine.  Burying adulterous women up to their necks in the ground, then stoning their heads to death would be fine.  Chopping off a thief's hand would be fine....  if the people want it, of course.  How this logic comes from one of the freeest and most open countries in the world is beyond me.

- Vengeance

ThomPhoenix

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Re: Rant! They have done it again...
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2006, 07:52:24 am »
Quote
Chopping off a thief's hand would be fine....  if the people want it, of course.  How this logic comes from one of the freeest and most open countries in the world is beyond me.
Very simple, we're living in a democracy :)
Our minister didn't mean that he *agreed* with the Sharia, he just meant that IF 2/3 of the entire dutch population would say "We want the Sharia" our parliament should *not* change our constitution to block that, as in a true democracy, the government listens to what the *people* want. The thing about the Sharia was just an example, and it underlines again how an open country The Netherlands are.

I read the article you linked to, and ... it kinda twists our minister's words, like if he's really about to introduce the Sharia in The Netherlands. Bad source of info you have  :thumbdown:

And the article about "one third of the Dutch want to emigrate"? Come on, some unknown research bureau did an inquiry with 400 people...
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 08:03:02 am by ThomPhoenix »
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Mindari

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Re: Rant! They have done it again...
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2006, 06:27:14 pm »
i am of the opinion that people are allways going to fight over the slightest difference between them, because of our habit of passing the buck. every single conflict in our history is a result of someone blaming someone else for their own problems, and there will be allways problems untill there is no difference of opinion between anyone, and no one hates or loves anyone. in which case we may as well not exist.

Vengeance

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Re: Rant! They have done it again...
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2006, 07:36:41 am »
If two-thirds of the Netherlands ever votes Sharia law into being the law of the land, just think of the tourism it will lose....

- no more legal prostitution
- no more euthanasia
- no more semi-legal drugged out coffee shops
- no more homosexuals
- no more television
- no more images or pictures of any kind
- no more education of females, as they become property like cattle

If the Justice Minister can be so blah and accepting of this possibility, won't he think of the lost tourism Euros? :-)

In terms of Dutch emigration, you can doubt the survey all you want but the figures are here: (http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/mens-maatschappij/bevolking/publicaties/artikelen/2005-1659-wm.htm)   5 years ago, 30,000 people were leaving Holland and last year it was 50,000.  That is a big increase in a short amount of time.  Perhaps Swedish immigrants to NL will make up the difference. :-)

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zanzibar

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Re: Rant! They have done it again...
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2006, 08:24:42 am »
There would still be homosexual people.  Maybe you meant to say there would be no more open homosexuality?


edit: I like Baldur's wording better.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 10:01:13 am by zanzibar »
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Baldur

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Re: Rant! They have done it again...
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2006, 09:46:15 am »
There would be no open homosexuality, I think that's what Venge meant. All who were caught loving another one of his/her same sex would be stoned.