Author Topic: An article on Western Islamophobia  (Read 3889 times)

zanzibar

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2006, 06:56:21 pm »
Oh, I forgot about slavery!  That's a good example.  Purely based in greed, and the Bible was used many times to justify it.
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ThomPhoenix

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2006, 06:59:10 pm »
The bible, and many other holy books, were written so vague they can be used to justify anything.
Oppression of women
Oppression of non-white people
Oppression of other religions.
etc.

That stuff isn't in the Bible, still the Bible was used to "prove" those practices time after time, even today.
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zanzibar

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2006, 07:44:14 pm »
I never said the Bible didn't contradict itself on those points.  Here's an entertaining website:  http://mindprod.com/religion/biblestudy.html
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Karyuu

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2006, 08:10:48 pm »
Note: Posts of a Political, Religious, or Sexual Nature
Such posts are considered trolling, as they incite personal attacks and flaming, and the latter may be inappropriate for all ages. Do not make them. There are many places on the Internet that welcome such discussions; the PlaneShift forums are not one of those places.

Keep religion out of this forum.

*edit*

I am serious. This whole thread has become one giant sprint for rule-breaking. Replies concerning general religion without discussing the original topic will be deleted. If you want to reply to a point someone else made about vairous religions beliefs, use PMs.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 08:18:34 pm by Karyuu »
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Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Datruth

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2006, 08:17:03 pm »
Sorry karyuu lol , didn't notice your post, let's get back on topic.
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Mindari

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2006, 08:59:39 pm »
datruth: look at the name of this topic. look at karyuu's post. carefully compare the 2  ;p

zanzibar

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2006, 12:13:03 am »
*shrug* I've approached things from a historical perspective, not a religious one.
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Robinmagus

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2006, 12:35:27 am »
I don't think many people lump together regular garden-variety moderate Muslims and extremist death-cult terrorists who happen to cloak themselves in the trappings of Islamism.  This idea that reactions against terrorism and bombings and people shouting "Death to America" can all be labeled "Islamophobia" is really just a form of denial as to what people out there really are fighting against.  There are people that hate the West, hate the way women have rights, hate that a certain country (Israel) exists on the planet, and so forth.  They use the rhetoric of Islam to justify their actions and to incite people to feel righteous in following their cause.

They also consciously use it to take advantage of the multi-cultural white guilt that thinkers like Karen Armstrong appear to wallow in.  If you don't think they are that smart, then perhaps you're a racist.

I'm not Islamophobic.  I'm suicide-bomber-phobic.  No matter the religion or the trappings surrounding it.

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That was....beautiful...


EDIT: took out religious stuff...after Karyuus post scared the hell out of me.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 12:38:04 am by Robinmagus »
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Vengeance

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2006, 07:17:29 am »
Ok I have edited the thread to take out anything that was purely an opinion about one religion or another.  Terrorism and how to label it seems like a fair subject for a thread here if we can stay civil.  Religion bashing or religion boosting isn't going to go anywhere or help anything, so it is deleted.

Advice for Datruth and Zanz: Please quit posting huge quotes of entire things into the forums.  Just link to the page with the article or the page with all the Christian quotes instead of filling up our browsers with posts a meter long that no one will read.

  • I think it is certainly a valid point that the "vast majority" of Muslims are not terrorists but that does not disprove the converse.  Almost all of the current terrorism problem in the world is being caused by people who are Islamic.  As a percentage of the entire Muslim world, a very *small* percentage, but if someone is a terrorist they are almost certainly Muslim.
  • If you need "proof" that "a lot of terrorists are Islamic" then you have your head in the sand to a point where it is pointless to discuss this any farther.  U.S.A. - Bombed by Muslims.  Indonesia -- Bombed by Muslims.  India -- Bombed by Muslims.  Sudan -- Genocide by Muslims.  Bosnia -- Genocide by Muslims.  Kosovo -- Torn apart by Muslims.  Chechnya -- War by Muslims.  Philippines -- Rebellion by Muslims.  Sri Lanka -- Rebellion by Muslims.  UK -- bombed by Muslims.  Spain -- bombed by Muslims.  Germany -- bombing attempted by Muslims.  Canada -- bombing attempted by Muslims.  Reactions by Muslims worldwide when they hear of successes in these other places?  Dancing in the streets and great ululation.
  • If you think the hateful and twisted page from Zanzibar's link explains why they hate US, then why do they hate India and Canada and Sudanese farmers?
  • If you have another label which fits them and somehow leaves out their religious commonality, I'm all for hearing it.  Until such a moniker is found, "Islamic Radicals" is no less a fair term than calling the Branch Davidians "Christian Radicals", and certainly does not brand the entire religion as radical any more than describing something as "red paint" means that anything which is red is also paint.  The only other likely modifier to "radicals" would be "Arab" but they aren't all Arab.  Iran is Persian and Sudanese or Chechnyan Muslims aren't Arabs either.
  • Admittedly, if Hugo Chavez joins them, we'll have to come up with a broader label. :-)

I guess what I don't understand at a higher level here is the rush to defend them and the rush to blame anyone but them.  You both sound like defense law students arguing some academic case in a moot court.  The fact is that they want us dead and tell us this every chance they get.  They celebrate wildly at every success.  Whether they have reason to hate me or not, I prefer to remain living.  That makes them my enemy and yours, whether you know it or not--unless of course you're on their side.

If I'm wrong about all this, and you obviously believe that I am wrong, what is the alternative you are advocating?  Worldwide dhimmitude, forced conversions by the millions and Taliban rule in America?  Are you advocating that they will all shut up and become peaceful if we simply stop doing a certain thing?  Aside from saying "USA=Bad" what are you suggesting should happen and what do you predict the result would be if you got your wish and we did what you require?

- Puzzled Vengeance

zanzibar

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2006, 08:11:39 am »
I've said it before and I've said it again: No one here is defending the terrorists, including the writer of the article.

  • Actually, quite a few people read what I posted.
  • The article didn't say that there aren't a lot of Islamic terrorists out there.  The article was about how Islam itself is being painted unfairly and without attention to historical truth.
  • The links I've posted haven't been hateful or twisted, unless you see history as inherently hateful and twisted.
  • Hating the USA doesn't mean you aren't allowed to hate India and Canada as well.
  • Society and the mass media do not use the term "Christian Radicals" nearly as casually as they use "Islamic ______".  That's part of the point here.  When a Muslim blows himself up, it's a reflection on all of Islam.  When a Christian blows himself up, it's just some crazy.
  • No one here is saying we should stop fighting terrorist fundamentalist organizations and activities.
  • The point of the article is to outline a kind of biggotry which has developed in the West by putting recent events and ideas in historical perspective.



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Immaturity is FTW.

Uyaem

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2006, 08:33:24 am »
The article didn't say that there aren't a lot of Islamic terrorists out there.  The article was about how Islam itself is being painted unfairly and without attention to historical truth.
The historical truth is also that (quoting a quote) "a lot of terrorists are Islamic".

Hating the USA doesn't mean you aren't allowed to hate India and Canada as well.
Hehe nice one. :D

When a Muslim blows himself up, it's a reflection on all of Islam.  When a Christian blows himself up, it's just some crazy.
I disagree, because it matters why you blow yourself up. For a Christian, it's rarely to fight a "holy war" (which btw deserves to be the misnomer of the century) but rather because his wife cheated on him or something. Crazy.

The point of the article is to outline a kind of biggotry which has developed in the West by putting recent events and ideas in historical perspective.
Talking of "putting into perspective" - when did you last burn an embassy because of an insensible drawing of whatever you cherish or believe in, or when someone publically questions the ideals behind your belief?
The internet is "the terrorists'" most important weapon, they say.
Wrong.
Fear is their most important weapon.
Ours is our freedom.

zanzibar

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2006, 09:03:46 am »
Except that I'm not a fundamentalist or extremist, so why are you asking me such a bizzare question?

No religion has a good history when it comes to combining religion and violence, and Christianity isn't excepted.  Look at the Protestant-Catholic conflict in Ireland, or at the violence directed towards abortion clinics and doctors in the US.  This is simple and ongoing history.  Are these people representatives of all of Christianity?  Absolutely positively not.

I am not saying that Christianity is more or less violent than any other religion.  I am not making any comment on the worth or dignity of Christianity or any other religion.  But you said that for Christians, it's "rarely to fight a 'holy war'", but I'm not sure if it's as rare as you might think it is.
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Uyaem

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2006, 10:11:53 am »
No religion has a good history when it comes to combining religion and violence, and Christianity isn't excepted.
Someone said it before in this thread - history is history. I cannot say I feel guilty for, say, the crusades. But I can learn from that past. The radical elements, no matter what religion they claim to follow, also learnt from that - but apparently they learnt something different.

I am not making any comment on the worth or dignity of Christianity or any other religion.
Well, if you ask me, the whole concept of "praciticing religion" is an insult to human dignity, since the only common ground that all religions can find is the phrase "we are right and you are not", wrapped in pretty words. This is bound to cause hostility, since dogmatically all new or different ideas are wrong... I'll stop there since this goes beyond this topic.

Except that I'm not a fundamentalist or extremist, so why are you asking me such a bizzare question?
This is my point, let's assume you are a Christian, and maybe a "good one" (as in "strong believer") - you would maybe be insulted if something like this was said about holy figures in your religion's history. But would you go rampaging in the streets? It's not the indignation, but it's proportionality I despise.

(In the most recent case) especially, since the phrase that contained the "blasphemous" words was taken out of context - he actually focused on the "religion + violence = no no!" part, and not the "muslims bad haha" part. A quote and speech that were translated over and over again. A quote that far too often wasn't even recognized as a quote but as the words of Benedikt himself. Causing a radical response among thousands of people in more than just a handful of countries. So I think the question (or general cogitation) of how many muslims actually follow the peaceful image that the moderate followers of this religion constantly draw for the "western world" (should also be a candidate for this century's misnomer ;)).
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 10:14:16 am by Uyaem »
The internet is "the terrorists'" most important weapon, they say.
Wrong.
Fear is their most important weapon.
Ours is our freedom.

zanzibar

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2006, 10:22:47 am »
Why would he put that quote in his speach if he didn't agree with it?  Especially if he didn't then go into why it was wrong?  This is a tangent though.

And there are religions out there which believe in tolerance and acceptance... Christianity and Islam are two examples.
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Immaturity is FTW.

Uyaem

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Re: An article on Western Islamophobia
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2006, 10:51:00 am »
Why would he put that quote in his speach if he didn't agree with it?  Especially if he didn't then go into why it was wrong?  This is a tangent though.
The title was "Faith, Reason and the University - Memories and Reflections", the quote was called "gruff", he used the quote and the source's elaboration of why spreading religion through violence should be condemned, he concluded the speech with "It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university.", ...
Need more? You seem to be focussing on the quote itself and not on "the whole picture", which is a mistake in my opinion. Because I agree, the words themselves in the part he quoted are provoking and probably ill-chosen - when you forget about the context.
The internet is "the terrorists'" most important weapon, they say.
Wrong.
Fear is their most important weapon.
Ours is our freedom.