An article on Western Islamophobia

[zanzibar]

Why would he put that quote in his speach if he didn't agree with it?  Especially if he didn't then go into why it was wrong?  This is a tangent though.

The title was "Faith, Reason and the University - Memories and Reflections", the quote was called "gruff", he used the quote and the source's elaboration of why spreading religion through violence should be condemned, he concluded the speech with "It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university.", ...
Need more? You seem to be focussing on the quote itself and not on "the whole picture", which is a mistake in my opinion. Because I agree, the words themselves in the part he quoted are provoking and probably ill-chosen - when you forget about the context.

His use of the quote is part of the big picture.

[Uyaem]

His use of the quote is part of the big picture.

Oh really? Thanks for pointing that out, must have slipped my mind...
I start to doubt that you even heard or read the speech, apart from the paragraph in question, making serious argumentation pointless.

[Datruth]

I've replied to parts of the quote in the quote; all my words are in between the Brackets []. (They are now seperated)

I addressed the parts that are underlined, or in bold, or that are directly above said comments.

Enjoy 

Ok I have edited the thread to take out anything that was purely an opinion about one religion or another.  Terrorism and how to label it seems like a fair subject for a thread here if we can stay civil.  Religion bashing or religion boosting isn't going to go anywhere or help anything, so it is deleted.

Advice for Datruth and Zanz: Please quit posting huge quotes of entire things into the forums.  Just link to the page with the article or the page with all the Christian quotes instead of filling up our browsers with posts a meter long that no one will read.

• I think it is certainly a valid point that the "vast majority" of Muslims are not terrorists but that does not disprove the converse.  Almost all of the current terrorism problem in the world is being caused by people who are Islamic.  As a percentage of the entire Muslim world, a very *small* percentage, but if someone is a terrorist they are almost certainly Muslim.
  

[Datruth: That was the most opinionated, politically wrong answer i have ever heard. But i'm glad atleast you take a stand, alot of people waver and occillate but you, venge, take a stand, Although IT is 100% wrong, i still enjoy that you take your stand.

1) China, by far, is the worlds biggest terrorist organization, They have the most Government regulated Deaths in the WORLD as well as RE EDUACTION for people who don't conform to their rule. Basically, you have all of your Basic freedoms taken away from you and you work for the betterment of the "group" when in reality it's the betterment of the Government and most of people are dirt poor.

Watch any documentry about china, read any book about in depth life in china, and do any College project about China, and you will find the underlying truth, IT is an oppressive government that enslaves its people and takes away BASIC human rights.

2)Besides china, we know for a fact that the Khmer Rouge was one of the most Barbaric Governments the world had ever seen. Al qeada is a pittance of an organization compared to the Khmer Rouge based on power, effect on people, and size.]

3) Soviet Russia, Killed about 20 MILLION of it's own people, that's 3 or 4 Jewish Halocausts. They were and always will be the Strongest, Most efficient, Terrorist organization the world has ever seen.

4) The drug trade in Central and South America. It isn't one single organized entity but it needs to be discussed. Millions of pounds of drugs get smuggled in the U.S and other countries through Central and south America. Nearly 80% of the murders in Southern california were Drug related and perpetrated by Gang members.
Here's more stats relating Drugs and California: http://www.dea.gov/pubs/states/california.html
Although you can't say it's all organized, you know that 100's of terrorist organizations, known as Gangs, smuggle, sell and extort people every single day, right in our backyard, and WE HAVE LITTLE EFFECT on it.
Why no one mentions the Drug trade in America and the 100's of terrorist gangs that profit from it is odd to me, but i definately see them as a threat, more so than any organization thousands of miles away, having hit us once, and even that is being questioned.

5) Al-Qaeda and Bin laden, Hardly killed 1/4th of any other contender listed here, not nearly as organized as them, and is slowly being removed from Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan, by American intervention.

[li]If you need "proof" that "a lot of terrorists are Islamic" then you have your head in the sand to a point where it is pointless to discuss this any farther.

[[LOOK AT ABOVE ANSWER... They harldy leave a dent in our historical text books]

U.S.A. - Bombed by Muslims.

[Along with the Japanese, not so long ago, and look where the Japs are now. By the way we owe them 75 billion dollars, as a trade deficit. http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_viewpoints_tradetestimony
And guess what, the Japs killed more, i'm talking, HUGE amounts of Americans, and yet they stand Free now.]

Indonesia -- Bombed by Muslims.

[Bombed by ALOT Of countries, besides Muslims, let's try THE U.S!
"1965 American-backed Genocide of the Indonesian People
Estimated civilian deaths: 500,000 - 1,000,000 people.
A complex series of events, involving a supposed coup attempt, a counter-coup, and perhaps a counter-counter-coup, with American fingerprints apparent at various points, resulted in the ouster from power of Sukarno and his replacement by a military coup led by General Suharto. The massacre that began immediately – of Communists, Communist sympathizers, suspected Communists, suspected Communist sympathizers, and none of the above – was called by the New York Times "one of the most savage mass slayings of modern political history." The estimates of the number killed in the course of a few years begin at half a million and go above a million.
It was later learned that the U.S. embassy had compiled lists of "Communist" operatives, from top echelons down to village cadres, as many as 5,000 names, and turned them over to the army, which then hunted those persons down and killed them. The Americans would then check off the names of those who had been killed or captured.
"It really was a big help to the army. They probably killed a lot of people, and I probably have a lot of blood on my hands," said one U.S. diplomat. "But that's not all bad. There's a time when you have to strike hard at a decisive moment. "
Added note: To this day, Indonesia's military and police forces continue to be one of America's best customers for weapons, training, and torture devices." ~~Taken from why they hate us article mentioned in thread]

India -- Bombed by Muslims. 

[Agreed, but that was because of tensions between India and Pakistan and their seperation. Just like the Catholic/prodestant or English/Irish tensions that lead to deaths on both sides.
Remember, indians bombed Pakistan too, and there is blood on both hands. This is not a 1 sided problem. Both sides are at fault.]

Sudan -- Genocide by Muslims.

[BAD muslims, not good muslims, Being a muslim is very simple, just like being a Christan is. Say you believe in God and his messenger and you're in, explains the Big club. Christians on the other hand wish to take in the belief that Christ is their Lord and Savior, also a big club. That said, IF the U.S.A and ENGLAND both teamed up, they could easily fix this problem in 2 months, 1 YEAR max.

They stand by and let Poor people suffer, die in the hundreds, and they DON'T do a thing.
A person who allows a women to Get raped is just as Responsible as the person who is doing the Raping.
Right now Sudan's innocent people are being destroyed, and AMERICA AND ENGLAND, are allowing it to happen. This isn't a muslim problem, it's a Western problem, ALL western countries are to blame. ]

Bosnia -- Genocide by Muslims.

[What are you talking about, Christians, slavs, croats, and Russians WERE ALL INVOLVED, it wasn't Muslims that started the tensions in Bosnia, it was the Serbs, everyone is at fault by CLEARLY the serbs. This was obviously filtered information someone gave you, that frankly isn't the truth, The muslims were just in Bosnia, at the wrong place and time when the war erupted they had little to do with the tensions that actually fueled and enflamed the war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_war]

Kosovo -- Torn apart by Muslims. 

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_war
Again, do some more reading, Kosovo was another Serbian Nationalistic Problem. I'm sure if one muslim were in the vietnam war you would probably say it was a Muslim war as well..... i mean i'm really seeing a pattern here, a pattern of mis information.]

Chechnya -- War by Muslims.

[Chechnya.... yes chechnya, sounds alot like the last 2, but which war do you mean? There are 3 wars, the first second and third. In all three muslmis weren't to blame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechnya_War
You can blame Russia for destroying that region, not the muslims. Again, a pattern of Misinformation]

Philippines -- Rebellion by Muslims.

[And tell me what is wrong with a rebellion? Does that make someone evil?
To tell you the truth, i rebbelled about my right to vote when they tried to replace paper ballots with Diebolt machines in Southern California. How much destructions did the muslims cause in the phillipines? How many people died? Did anyone die?
Check the numbers and get back to me on how that was a SEVERE muslim problem.
Did you know the phillipines has one of the Largest Christain Majorities on Earth? Even larger than America?
And guess what the majority of those that cause problems are christians. Does that mean that christains are bad?]

Sri Lanka -- Rebellion by Muslims.

[See above response, and again Sri lanka has had alot of problems with Indians too, not just muslims.]

UK -- bombed by Muslims.

[The Germans have caused 1 million times more damage than ANY muslim has EVER done. Does that make Germany a Destructive state? Is germany evil? They unleashed THOUSANDS of bombs on the U.K, this wasn't even that long ago, why is your mind so closed minded? Obviously the facts state that Christians have done more damage to the U.k, Therefore christians are all at fault, and they have a demonic religeon. Bad assumption right? Exactly my point, you also have a bad asumption. Historically muslims barely caused a Dent to the U.K.]

Spain -- bombed by Muslims.

[Agreed, but just as many deaths are caused by Christians.]

Germany -- bombing attempted by Muslims.

[I bet EVERY single RACE, RELIGEON, and CREED as tried to bomb Germany, for whatever crazy reasons they may have had. WHAT IS YOUR POINT VENGE? Religeon has no standing whatsoever here. The Neo Nazis have caused more trouble there than ANY muslims have.]

Canada -- bombing attempted by Muslims.

[Read last post... same issue, Christians have done more damage to Canada than muslims ever have.
Again, filtered glasses, take them off please.]

Reactions by Muslims worldwide when they hear of successes in these other places?  Dancing in the streets and great ululation.[/li][/b][/u][/color]

[That is by far the most false statement on here. I'd like you to show me that a Vast majority of muslims were happy when they saw the terroist attacks. Please show me, i'm waiting. Literally EVERY muslim i know hated seeing them and detested them. It made all of them look bad and made us look even worse reporting that they were happy.
So you see one video of people in Saudi arabia dancing around like fools, guess what, Saudia arabia is a poor, bunch of un educated, enslaved people, and you assume almost 2 BILLION Muslims worldwide are Happy.
I really don't know what to say to this.... it's wrong at all aspects, and if you truly believe it, Proove it, show me where 2 billion People worldwide enjoyed watching it.
Even the Good muslmis you mentioned in your first sentance, whom you YOURSELF said were the majority, would not be happy.
I see some conflictions in your statements.]

[li]If you think the hateful and twisted page from Zanzibar's link explains why they hate US, then why do they hate India and Canada and Sudanese farmers?[/li]
[li]If you have another label which fits them and somehow leaves out their religious commonality, I'm all for hearing it.  Until such a moniker is found, "Islamic Radicals" is no less a fair term than calling the Branch Davidians "Christian Radicals", and certainly does not brand the entire religion as radical any more than describing something as "red paint" means that anything which is red is also paint.  The only other likely modifier to "radicals" would be "Arab" but they aren't all Arab.  Iran is Persian and Sudanese or Chechnyan Muslims aren't Arabs either.[/li]
[li]Admittedly, if Hugo Chavez joins them, we'll have to come up with a broader label. :-)[/li]
[/list]

[Gee, you know what, alot of people don't even like calling them Muslims because they are as far from it as you can get. Sure they meet the minimum requirements, they believe in a God and that Muhammad was his prophet.

I'm sure the KKK also fit the Minimum Christian guidlines, but they are NEVER CALLED Christians, or even christian extremists.

So you want a wider term that includes everyone, even hugo chavez.

I got it right here, Terrorist

Try that next time. ]

I guess what I don't understand at a higher level here is the rush to defend them and the rush to blame anyone but them.  You both sound like defense law students arguing some academic case in a moot court.  The fact is that they want us dead and tell us this every chance they get.  They celebrate wildly at every success.  Whether they have reason to hate me or not, I prefer to remain living.  That makes them my enemy and yours, whether you know it or not--unless of course you're on their side.

[The japanese wanted us all dead, the Germans wanted us all dead, the Crusades wanted all muslms dead. They all rejoiced, WHAT is your point? In historical time, the muslmis have caused far less damage to the world than Christianty has, why isn't anyone pointing a finger at them, You know why? Because we understand christans are mainly good people, they help the world, and they arn't to blame if wackoos go nuts and kill in their name.]

If I'm wrong about all this, and you obviously believe that I am wrong, what is the alternative you are advocating?  Worldwide dhimmitude, forced conversions by the millions and Taliban rule in America?  Are you advocating that they will all shut up and become peaceful if we simply stop doing a certain thing?  Aside from saying "USA=Bad" what are you suggesting should happen and what do you predict the result would be if you got your wish and we did what you require?

[I'm advocating, not mentioning religeon, it is INSIGNIFICANT, they fight for their so called religeon, but so have Christians and they are #1, numero uno, on the list of overall Deaths, killings, and terrorist attacks in their name. The church went as far as having a HOLY WAR to exterminate all muslims from Jerusalem. Do not say Muslim Extremist, Do not say Christian Extremist, Do not say Jewish or Hindu Extremist.

All i want said is, Terrorist. It is unfair to blame one religeon and i think i've widely proved that over this discussion.]

- Puzzled Vengeance

[Puzzled Datruth]


That is the most puzzling answer i've ever heard and it sounds as if you have been getting your info filtered to you from outside sources.

I'd recommend using the internet alot more, when searching for info.

No more T.V, CNN, Fox news, MSNBC, or ABC.

Listen to them if you like, but go find the information by yourself, don't let them Spoon feed you their Bias.

And i hope you liked my comments i added to your quote, i mean alot of your points were dead wrong, not in just my opinion, but factually wrong.

Hope everyone has been enlightened by this Long and Grueling post that took me a while to do.

~~Datruth

Edit: Fixed typos and spelling errors, seperated quote from replies

[zanzibar]

Datruth, that's a really excellent post.  You've shown Vengeance's position to be nonsense in a really effective way.  Can I suggest that you edit your post and format it with quotes so it's easier for people to read?

[Kymizer]

Very good Daruth, the same thing in China is also happening in India.  Each "state" is basicly run by gangs and mass murders happen all the time.  Thats a main reason why one of my best friends dad moved his family over here, there was a threat to kill them.  People outside India think that they are doing fine and that they have a good government, but underneath it all, its run by terrorist gangs.  Anyone can be bribed, (same with the U.S.)

[zanzibar]

Don't forget Russia!  When the soviet union collapsed, the KGB basically joined the Russian maffia.  They were trained assassins who were suddenly unemployed, and now they work for the mob.

[Xordan]

Datruth does have a lot of very good points in reply to Venge there. I think that they're both correct. What is different between them is what they define as a 'terrorist'. For Venge, that would be any modern small group of people who go around blowing people up with guerilla style tatics for their own goals (and they attack the big boys and create 'terror'.). For Datruth, that would be any group, no matter how big, that goes around killing or exploiting people to enforce their own view point. (Those are really short explainations, but they'll do). If you take Venge's viewpoint, then nearly all terrorists are Islamic. If you take Datruth's viewpoint, then pretty much all governments/royal families/multinational companies are terrorists or have been at some point in the past.

The modern day definition of 'Terrorist' is Venge's viewpoint, so technically he is 100% right in what he's saying. But so is Datruth. It just depends on what scale you look at things.

(A nice example of Datruth's viewpoint is the USA's mass killing and taking the land of the native americans in the past. That was surely no better or worse than China has done and to a much lesser extent these days still doing.)

[zanzibar]

Xordan, you're so, so wrong.  Islamic terrorists and non-Islamic terrorists operate in much the same way.  Do you have any idea how many bombings there have been in Russia by "rebels"?


I think Datruth and Vengeance are using largely the same definition of terrorist.  "Islamic Terrorists" are often associated with governments, so you can't say that Vengeance shouldn't take into consideration other organizations supported by governments.  They use the same tactics, so you can't say that it's just about bombings.

[Datruth]

ter‧ror‧ist  /ˈtɛrərɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ter-er-ist] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.
2.   a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
3.   (formerly) a member of a political group in Russia aiming at the demoralization of the government by terror.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm sure some people want to believe only Muslims are terrorists, and they can believe whatever they want, but the truth of the matter is religeon is pointless.

I've clearly shown, if you take an un biased stance on the issue, that religeon is a meaningless factor when it comes to assessing these people.

I'm glad everyone liked my last post, i'll take zanzibar's advice and re format it, it really would look better if it were seperated.

Clearly, we can't both be right. Either, muslims are the majority of terrorists, or they arn't.

I've shown they arn't, he's shown they are, and there might be a difference of our definitions of terrorists.

So because of that, i've shown the defintion, and according to it, the vast majority of terrorists are not muslims.

I rest my case.

~~Datruth

[Xordan]

Xordan, you're so, so wrong.  Islamic terrorists and non-Islamic terrorists operate in much the same way.  Do you have any idea how many bombings there have been in Russia by "rebels"?

Yup, nowhere near as many 'terrorist attacks' as there have been by Islamic militants. There are several bombings a day in the middle east, and there have been for a while. I don't believe there are bombings every day in Russia. I don't see many russian terrorists running into busy marketplaces with explosives strapped around themselves and blowing themselves up every day either. I don't see any evidence that right now the majority of terrorists aren't Islamic. In the past, ok, you're probably right (although that can be argued depending on the date). And if I'm "so, so wrong", then both Venge and Datruth are wrong too.

[Datruth]

I don't see any evidence that right now the majority of terrorists aren't Islamic. In the past, ok, you're probably right (although that can be argued depending on the date). And if I'm "so, so wrong", then both Venge and Datruth are wrong too.

Right now, what currently affects me the most is the Drug trade. Sure it's not one organized organization, neither is Islamic terrorism, they are a myriad of smaller groups.

At my high school, we had Every type of drug known to man. Even worse we had them sold there as well.
I personally saw friends who fell into addiction and alot of them are poor and in re hab.
I've seen gangs who sell this stuff, who get rich off of it, make millions, and then terrorize the community.

I mean it's better now that i'm in college, most drug trafficers find that they don't want to pay money for college, so therefore we have a better campus, but we do have a percentage of drug users still present here, who have been taking drugs since High school.

I mean the number one problem in Southern California, places like l.a, irvine, orange county, santa barbara, IS drugs.
Islamic groups have had little to no effect on my daily life. We have no muslim gangs in Southern California that blow themselves up.
Actually, muslims are a positive force here, and i have about 12 muslim friends, and 3 of them i know very well.

So you say muslims are having a dramatic affect on you, that's fine, it may be true for you, but for me it's the drug trade and it's having a devestating effect here in California, i'm sure even Karyuu has had to face it at one time or another, so she might comment on it as well.

A great movie to watch that addresses this problem is "Blow" and that only addresses one drug, but it still shows a great portrayal.

And i'm glad you agree that if you ecompass the past, with our present, you see Islamic terrorists, as you call it, have not made much of a dent in history, in respect to total kills or violence.

~~Datruth

[Baldur]

Remember, do not generalize Islam into something a fraction did. In arabic"Islam" means "Peace". Those who make war are not Muslims/Islamists, whatever you call the religion they practice.

To pose critique at Christianity. Jesus brought peace and he loved everyone. Christianity, like Islam, and many other religions, is about peace, yet we war in the name of God. Religion is to find peace, to find balance in an otherwise chaotic universe.

If religion is it's counterpart, won't it lose it's purpose?

[Kymizer]

A great movie to watch that addresses this problem is "Blow" and that only addresses one drug, but it still shows a great portrayal.

~~Datruth

Very good movie.

Yes, I will admit, i live in a rich neighborhood, and my parents (in my opinion) are raising me fairly well.  The sad thing is, is that all these other rich kids, get tons of money from their parents, and use it to get high, or to use any other drug.  My parents don't give me ANY money, they provide for me with food and bedding and with christmas and birthday gifts, but thats about it.  If i want to get something, like a car, i have to work for it and buy it myself, unlike all these other snobby kids that live around me and their parents give them cars on Valentines day....

[Xordan]

To pose critique at Christianity. Jesus brought peace and he loved everyone. Christianity, like Islam, and many other religions, is about peace, yet we war in the name of God. Religion is to find peace, to find balance in an otherwise chaotic universe.

Right. Religion is rarely the cause of war, but often the excuse for war. It is the people who cause the problems, not the religion itself (usually).

[zanzibar]

Xordan, you're so, so wrong.  Islamic terrorists and non-Islamic terrorists operate in much the same way.  Do you have any idea how many bombings there have been in Russia by "rebels"?

Yup, nowhere near as many 'terrorist attacks' as there have been by Islamic militants. There are several bombings a day in the middle east, and there have been for a while. I don't believe there are bombings every day in Russia. I don't see many russian terrorists running into busy marketplaces with explosives strapped around themselves and blowing themselves up every day either. I don't see any evidence that right now the majority of terrorists aren't Islamic. In the past, ok, you're probably right (although that can be argued depending on the date). And if I'm "so, so wrong", then both Venge and Datruth are wrong too.

- Historical perspective is key.  In the past?  EXACTLY.

- 1 in 4 people are Islamic.

- Your points rested on method, not number.