The Butterfly Effect

[Annah]

The Butterfly Effect 2, the movie, was launched these weeks, and I really had to see it, since the first one sure was very good. Impressive movie, as good as the original. I won't enter in details, I'll let the movie to be a surprize for who didn't see it yet. Though, what I want to talk about, is the main theory from which all starts. The butterfly effect, that is a more common referrence to the "famous" chaos theory.

In meteorology, the idea says that the flapping of a butterfly's wing will create a disturbance that in the chaotic motion of the atmosphere will become amplified eventually to change the large scale atmospheric motion, so that the long term behavior becomes impossible to forecast. The small wings of a butterfly can create a tornado on the other side of the world?

For more information I suggest going here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Since I started talking about the movie, I wanted to start a discussion about this theory, and its connection with shaping time. If we manage to go back in time, and we'll eventually change our past, how much will it matter for our future? And, in what way?

In the movies, every change would have had catastrophic "replies" in the future...

As a few questions, do you believe it's possible to go back in time? Can we change something, and have a different future? Because, some religions might say it's possible, but whatever we'll change, it won't matter in the present/future, because some things are just made to happen that way. Uhh, true? Destiny? Maybe not.

My own opinion would be, that if we can go back and change something, it will of course alter the future, though, what it matters, is that we can shape our every moment. Destiny? Neah.

I miss the "smart" discussions in here, oh, greetings!

[Xordan]

If you go back in time and change something, you would never have gone back in time to change it in the first place, so it's impossible to interact if one did go back in time (in my opinion). Unless you were supposed to go back in time to make the present possible of course.

If things are 'meant' to happen, then we have no free will and there's no such thing as 'random'.

[Peacer]

omg love that movie <3

[steuben]

at the moment i'm more of a fan of scorpious's theory of elastic temporal casuality.

basically it states that the closer to the orignal you change the past the closer to the orginal future the future will be. with the changes vanishing to quantum indistinguishablity after a finite period of time.

[Annah]

I say nothing is "meant" to happen, and we have the freedrom to choose, action which leads to a certain event. Though, others can say that was exactly what was supposed to happen, 'cause "that's how it was written". It's a vicious circile... Even so, I want to believe in our freedom. And we have it, since we do can shape our every moment.



And Xordan, that depends, if we can keep our memories from this kind of "trips", it will kinda change the whole idea. But, uhm, could we? In theory, it's ilogic to still remind something.

[Baldur]

This whole theorem of time travelling depends on the authencity of the "Multiple Dimensions" theory. We would have an infinite number of dimensions that said you didn't and another infinite number of dimensions which said you did.

I will be back soon. I just have to go out with the dog, destiny?

[Datruth]

I love this whole Chaos theory thing.

I have the butterfly effect and i loved that movie, i didn't know the second one came out yet, i'll get it A.S.A.P.

Basically, This is what i've learned from Chaos theory, EVERYTHING you do has an effect on your future, a HUGE effect.

Had your father sneezed 4 minutes before going up stairs to see your mother and start your conception, that sneeze itself might have been one of the causes of your birth.

Consider this, let's say there was a way to stop your father from sneezing, and lets say someone went back in time and did that.

Your father would enter into a new train of thought because he hadn't sneezed, he wouldn't be thinking about sneezing, and he probably would be doing something else, or contiue doing what he was working on.

Now let's say he decides to Join your mother 2 minutes LATER than normal, because there was no sneeze, and let's say because of this 2 minutes later, i now am given different genes because the sperm cell that was supposed to reach that egg never made it, and a new one made it.

Basically, that sneeze is like the butterflies flapping, and the hurricane on the other side of the world is my conception.

Now, it doesn't even have to be a sneeze, it could be a thought, let's say someone outside SCREAMS, really really loud.
You think about it and that thinking leads you to do certain actions.
Let's say now, that someone stopped that other person from screaming, you would enter into a different frame of thought.

My point after all this is basically, very minimal things have very dramatic impacts on your future, so make sure you make the right choices even if they may seem small.

I love chaos theory and i loved the first movie, can't wait to see the second

~~Datruth

[Radiant Memphis]

 Well, the only possible moment that we can experience is the now (so much as we know). So, if by some means of science modern or as not yet perceived one is able to go in any direction in time. They will would be in what would be perceived as the present for them even with knowledge of what would be perceived of the future/past (given they are in the what they perceive as the future/past). Are people who have visions of the future {true or not, forsake of argument} in actuality time travelers? Most likely not, but they could be. Although, they may have a very vivid and clear picture of something that may transpire. I think that it does link in to the idea that there are infinite planes/universes/dementions of being, some of which may co-encide with this one. The ability of contuses to transcend in some cases the idea of modern sciences and go to where ever. Some books have been written in the medium of astral travel, past life regression or in what modern science may call para-phycology etc. Only with proof measured with an open scientific mind would draw any real conclusion. For each there own.

 So, to say that with a well trained minded one can do such feats? It may be that without proper proof it could be speculated as hoax. Just as science was considered magic or alchemy to many long ago. The development of the brain to exert such genus would mean that we would simply need to use a larger portion of it. So, say this is possible and that we can go to any place in time. First you would have to have the proper knowledge that you are indeed where you where trying to go. The only way we have to measure or judge it by is mathematics as the universe as we perceive it is based in our minds upon it. So then a system that already exists or perhaps a new one not yet made would have to be used so as we know for certain that proper destination would be found.

 That said, changing something that has already happened (the past) may only change your perception of the future or only that of others. Where as dependent upon your micro-verse or dependent upon the macro-verse. It may be posable to do both, but no proof has been manifested as we know or do not know.
 
 The best that can be said in all reality, that is unless there is certain proof is that we scientifically philosophies about what can and can not be.

[Cha0s]

I like multiple dimensions. Well, sort of. But the idea is, if you go back in time, you create a new universe in which you went back in time. You can never get back to the original universe and that universe goes on with out you.

As far as traveling back in time in general, the only way to do this at the moment (theoretically), would be to travel faster than the speed of light which may be possible, but only if you want to go into a blackhole. And if you're going into a blackhole, well, I don't think it will really matter. So in short, I think traveling back in time is currently impossible and that it most likely always will be.

[Datruth]

Well, the only possible moment that we can experience is the now (so much as we know). So, if by some means of science modern or as not yet perceived one is able to go in any direction in time. They will would be in what would be perceived as the present for them even with knowledge of what would be perceived of the future/past (given they are in the what they perceive as the future/past). Are people who have visions of the future {true or not, forsake of argument} in actuality time travelers? Most likely not, but they could be. Although, they may have a very vivid and clear picture of something that may transpire. I think that it does link in to the idea that there are infinite planes/universes/dementions of being, some of which may co-encide with this one. The ability of contuses to transcend in some cases the idea of modern sciences and go to where ever. Some books have been written in the medium of astral travel, past life regression or in what modern science may call para-phycology etc. Only with proof measured with an open scientific mind would draw any real conclusion. For each there own.

 So, to say that with a well trained minded one can do such feats? It may be that without proper proof it could be speculated as hoax. Just as science was considered magic or alchemy to many long ago. The development of the brain to exert such genus would mean that we would simply need to use a larger portion of it. So, say this is possible and that we can go to any place in time. First you would have to have the proper knowledge that you are indeed where you where trying to go. The only way we have to measure or judge it by is mathematics as the universe as we perceive it is based in our minds upon it. So then a system that already exists or perhaps a new one not yet made would have to be used so as we know for certain that proper destination would be found.

 That said, changing something that has already happened (the past) may only change your perception of the future or only that of others. Where as dependent upon your micro-verse or dependent upon the macro-verse. It may be posable to do both, but no proof has been manifested as we know or do not know.
 
The best that can be said in all reality, that is unless there is certain proof is that we scientifically philosophies about what can and can not be.

Is that even a proper sentance.... what did you mean? I had no clue what it said, please reiterate.

What i got out of your post was, the person is crazy, he percieves the future, and in turn effects his reality.

Again, this person would be crazy, because in such a world where people can travel in time, they would have to affect the realities of EVERYONE around them, not just them, it's like being an actor in a play, you have to have everyone acting with you then.

u‧ni‧verse  /ˈyunəˌvɜrs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[yoo-nuh-vurs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   the totality of known or supposed objects and phenomena throughout space; the cosmos; macrocosm.

About multiple universes....that can't be possible. I mean look at the word Universe, isn't a universe that which encompasses all. If it doesn't encompass everything, it can't be the universe, and therefore you can't have multiple universes.


As far as the time thing, i have no clue if it's possible or not, to travel in time. Your guess is as good as mine, and i haven't researched the topic.

What i do know, is einstiens belief of the speed of light, being the maximum speed in the universe, is currently being re evaluated and i've heard theoretical mathematicians are finding ways to go faster than light.

[Radiant Memphis]

To argue the point would be fruitless. All that was said was mearly just to point out that everything is speculative at best without proof, and even then {as with the recent learnings about the speed of light} that proof of anything may in it's self be proven false over time.
Is not science great that it can evolve in that way? New ways of thinking and doing things are constantly evolving. What may seem like crazy may be the norm in the future. It's what you make of it, and how you gleam any understanding for the self more than anything else.

[Cha0s]

u?ni?verse? /?yun??v?rs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[yoo-nuh-vurs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   the totality of known or supposed objects and phenomena throughout space; the cosmos; macrocosm.

About multiple universes....that can't be possible. I mean look at the word Universe, isn't a universe that which encompasses all. If it doesn't encompass everything, it can't be the universe, and therefore you can't have multiple universes.

My turn:
universe, noun (the universe): all existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos

About the same. Doesn't really matter. You can use either definition. So what makes multiple universes possible within these definitions? Well, look at the ends: they mention "the cosmos." Well, in multiple universe theory there are multiple sets of "the cosmos," hence multiple universes. Why aren't the cosmos of these other universes all part of one big overall cosmos? Because you can't move from your universe to a pre-existing universe. Each universe is completely separate and isolated from each other universe. You can theoretically create a universe by traveling back in time (assuming that's possible), but at that point, you lose access to your previous universe. Here's a wiki on it.

EDIT: removed nasty characters

[zanzibar]

It all depends on your definition of tornado.

Personally, I think that the universe has a greater tendency towards mediocrity than towards extremes.  Things are only meaningful if we give them meaning, and all of our definitions are entirely relative in nature.  This is true also for our understanding of change and consequence.  Add in the fact that we cannot conduct tests that compare different timelines, and the question itself becomes rather meaningless.

All in all, the universe will end in "heat death", so what's to discuss?

[Baldur]

In order to enter a new Universe, a new dimension, a new time all in all, one will have to find a way to breach these barriers.

2 theories about the barriers exist today.
First, they exist in spacetime and every dimension is a 2D slice right next to the other. 3D is an illusion.
Second, large multiuniverses beyond the beginning of our dimension(the original light of big bang, roughly 14 billion years ago).

I'll explain more but i'm rather busy, i'll let you talk it out :/

[Datruth]

Before we go into asking how to enter Multiverses..... let's answer some questions.

Do we have any evidence of multiple universes?

I currently haven't found any, if you know some, please comment.

If we want to call this science, we need tangilble proof, not fairy tales.