Author Topic: The Butterfly Effect  (Read 12113 times)

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2006, 03:55:44 am »
Why wouldn't you show the corralation  between the two.

I can say, genius's have nick names that are Zanzibar.

Therefore if my nickname is Zanzibar, i am a genius.

No.  That's induction, not logic.

Logic itself overrides your Unicorn example because,

A) Unicorns do not exist

B) Most unicorns are shown to be white in fictional stories

C) We have millions of people who attest that the sky is blue

D) There is no corralation between the color of a unicorn and the color of the sky.


~~Datruth


No.  The system is still logical, even if the postulates are suspect.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Suno_Regin

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2445
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2006, 03:56:17 am »
Shut up and just enjoy the god damn movie. Discussions like this hurt my head. >.>

Datruth

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 841
  • "You can't Squeeze Blood from a stone."
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2006, 04:49:31 am »
Why wouldn't you show the corralation  between the two.

I can say, genius's have nick names that are Zanzibar.

Therefore if my nickname is Zanzibar, i am a genius.

No.  That's induction, not logic.

Main Entry:     induction
Part of Speech:     noun 2
Definition:     inference
Synonyms:     conclusion, conjecture, generalization, judgment, logical reasoning, ratiocination, rationalization, reason
Source:     Roget's New Millenniumâ„¢ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.


You say induction, i say logic, same thing, what's the difference?
Truth To Disbelief

Quote from: svuun
I adopt Karyuu.  She might not be new but her skin is so supple, soft and n00b like....  :sweatdrop:

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2006, 04:54:08 am »
Deduction is the example I gave with the unicorn.


This is induction:

(p1) crow 1 is black
(p2) crow 2 is black
(p3) crow 3 is black
(p4) crow 4 is black
...
(p1,000,000) crow 1,000,000 is black

(c1) Therefore:  All crows are black.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Vengeance

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1452
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2006, 07:10:51 am »
Datruth,

As usual, you missed the entire point of my post.  "Chaotic" is a word used to describe orderly systems which are still unpredictable without actually running the system (or the simulation).  There is no f(t) which lets you plug in a value of t and determine the outcome.  You must actually let it happen and see what does.  Systems which are predictable are known as 'deterministic' or 'classical'.  Systems which have no repeatability or order whatsoever are called 'stochastic' or just random.  The spectrum in the middle of systems which are not deterministic but also not completely random are what the term "chaotic" was invented for.  Snowflakes, clouds, fingerprints, stock market graphs.  All look like each other but no two are alike.  The pattern of chocolate syrup being stirred into a glass of milk...  if it was truly random, and you stirred long enough, do you think you could separate the milk from the chocolate again?

It isn't random.  But it is inherently impossible to predict as well.

To the other poster who asked a question of me, if you rerun the same simulation with the same variables, yes you will get the same answer.  This is fine and dandy in computer simulations of artificial chaotic systems, but in the "real world" the issue is that you *never* have all the variables, let alone run them exactly the same way twice.  This is what "the butterfly effect" really means.

- Vengeance

Datruth

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 841
  • "You can't Squeeze Blood from a stone."
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2006, 08:23:40 am »
Datruth,

As usual, you missed the entire point of my post.  "Chaotic" is a word used to describe orderly systems which are still unpredictable without actually running the system (or the simulation).  There is no f(t) which lets you plug in a value of t and determine the outcome.  You must actually let it happen and see what does.  Systems which are predictable are known as 'deterministic' or 'classical'.  Systems which have no repeatability or order whatsoever are called 'stochastic' or just random.  The spectrum in the middle of systems which are not deterministic but also not completely random are what the term "chaotic" was invented for.  Snowflakes, clouds, fingerprints, stock market graphs.  All look like each other but no two are alike.  The pattern of chocolate syrup being stirred into a glass of milk...  if it was truly random, and you stirred long enough, do you think you could separate the milk from the chocolate again?

It isn't random.  But it is inherently impossible to predict as well.

To the other poster who asked a question of me, if you rerun the same simulation with the same variables, yes you will get the same answer.  This is fine and dandy in computer simulations of artificial chaotic systems, but in the "real world" the issue is that you *never* have all the variables, let alone run them exactly the same way twice.  This is what "the butterfly effect" really means.

- Vengeance


Venge, what did i say that you had a problem with?

Mind quoting it next time!

I'm not a mind reader.
Truth To Disbelief

Quote from: svuun
I adopt Karyuu.  She might not be new but her skin is so supple, soft and n00b like....  :sweatdrop:

Mindari

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 176
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2006, 01:31:20 pm »
the post on page 4 of this thread.. common sense For The Win

Baldur

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1446
  • Disillusioning since 1989
    • View Profile
    • My Deviant
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2006, 01:46:04 pm »
I'm lost somewhere on the 4th page...

Isn't it better that you make a thread about the definition of logic and light speed, apparently this is all about chaos. Though could be hard because we keep slipping in on the same topic over and over again.

Shouldn't we rename this thread so that it better fits the purpose, a debate on definitive science.

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2006, 07:19:10 pm »
I don't see any need to rename the thread.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

miLosh

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 111
    • View Profile
    • The Community of Vaalnor
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2006, 07:13:30 am »
neither to i, the thread perfectly developed from art-fiction to science-fiction  ;D

there is more to find than you can lose...

Quote from: Phinehas
Lishom and Jekkar won't rid themselves of me that easily...

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2006, 07:37:42 am »
Theoretical physics isn't fiction...
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Datruth

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 841
  • "You can't Squeeze Blood from a stone."
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2006, 07:50:24 am »
Theoretical physics isn't fiction...

Well it isn't fact.

Let's call it an educated guess?

Better? :thumbup: :woot: :whistling:

Excessive smileys.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 07:56:03 am by Karyuu »
Truth To Disbelief

Quote from: svuun
I adopt Karyuu.  She might not be new but her skin is so supple, soft and n00b like....  :sweatdrop:

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2006, 08:00:49 am »
I'm not a fan of "fact".  Social reality is too subjective, physical reality is based on too much assumption.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Datruth

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 841
  • "You can't Squeeze Blood from a stone."
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2006, 08:06:10 am »
I'm not a fan of "fact".  Social reality is too subjective, physical reality is based on too much assumption.

So you don't trust any human observation?

Is it all about math than?

How do you check answers?

Obviously not logic or observations.

I'm confused, seems like a hard life to live lol.
Truth To Disbelief

Quote from: svuun
I adopt Karyuu.  She might not be new but her skin is so supple, soft and n00b like....  :sweatdrop:

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: The Butterfly Effect
« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2006, 08:10:03 am »
Math is based on assumption.  Human observations are value statements prone to bias.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.