Author Topic: Path of the Roleplayer.  (Read 7668 times)

Croconil

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2006, 01:21:09 pm »
Yes, we all know its a roleplaying game, and it would be GREAT if evryone roleplayed, but this is not the case. I would say 1 out of 3 people roleplay. Most people just sit there and level thier characters. We need more roleplayers!!!!

But yes, I see your point.

The Shadow Nose

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2006, 12:27:05 am »
Looking over this thread, I think the primary problem could be solved with a little modification of the Character creation system. Note that I'm personally more of a powerleveler and stat-maxer or what-have-you though I do have a little idea of what role-playing is.

Well, here is an idea for the character creation:

basically, at startup instead of CP a player has a given reserve of Progress Points (I'm tempted to say around 1000 or so... basically enough to create a normal beginner character as if using the CPs). Some of the existing parts used in the character creation could remain (Personally I like the birthday and the parts that ask about the characters family, though you could get the option to have one or both parents 'died fore you were born' or something. Being an orphan could explin the absence or the parents and such)

However, these options would merely write a few lines of info into your character description while not really effecting your stats too much. The main way of allocating stats would be manually through a system much like the training window seen in-game.

For Roleplayers who have a specific kind of character in mind, they can allocate the points so that their pacifist character doesn't have any ranks in weapon combat or that their vetran swordsman doensn't have any accidental ranks in herbalism or whatever.

Powerlevelers could likewise do what they want to create a specific char, for example they could guarentee at startup that they have at least 1 rank in mining without having to keep going back and forth trying to maniupate events and taking all the -CP events to max stats. Just keep things simple.

Then at the second to last screen, have a spot where the player can enter their characters in-game description. Therebye making up their history the way they see it. Any progress points not spent in character creation would be left with the character so they can train any skills they need in-game.


So basically, The way I see it have a few screens to remind people to include the 'Roleplay' characteristics such as family and birthday. While the characters actual stats are allocated in a way that is pretty much exactly how they will be allocated in the game itself and can be picked-up later when they enter the game.



As for the actual topic... mainly being able to create a character that is more powerful that the 'average character at character creation' perhaps allow players to 'take out a loan on Progress Points' so to speak. Since this is a Free MMORPG (and therefore you can't enter something like a way to spend RL dollers to get in-game goods) then it would probably work out so that at character creation you can get the extra points needed to level up your needed skills (such as get 1000 more PP to level your vetran swordsmans sword combat to 30 or 80 or whatever) but during the game you have a negative PP total and you have to work off that deficite plus interest before you can level up your character any more.


For example, player wants a swordsman with lvl 30 sword combat. They take out a PP loan for say 1000 PP and can get that lvl at startup. However, after startup they have -1500 PP (the origional deficite plus some interest or whatever, to make people think twice about creating a high lvl character). So the new character can be l33t at the beginning but will be hampered for some time, and after they paid their debt can level up as normal. This would make it so there aren't 2 different classes of player characters 'RPers' and 'Levelers' but just some would have Progress debts to work off before they can level again.


=========

Though another way to go would be to just provide more ways for people to impove their characters. I hear that D&D has a way for people to assign experience to people for roleplaying their characters properly. I suppose if there was a reliable way to reward role-players with XP for doing things then that could help a bit. Player-created quests that reward XP could potentially help with this and at the very least could make PowerLeveling more interesting. Heh, I would rather do some fun quests with other players (who don't break down like our NPCs) then sit around killing the same rouge all day if I could do that and still strengthen my char at the same time.


But anyway, as I said before I'm really more concerend with stats and such and don't do much in the way or RPing. Take my ideas however you will, and hopefully you will have better ones than I do.

Under the moon

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2006, 04:31:50 am »
I actually agree in part with your post, Shadow. I would not be opposed to this system. But purists (PL and RP) would cry about having to level and not geting anything to show for it -right now-.

The Shadow Nose

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2006, 07:45:33 am »
I actually agree in part with your post, Shadow. I would not be opposed to this system. But purists (PL and RP) would cry about having to level and not geting anything to show for it -right now-.

Yeah, I can believe that with the ability to 'borrow XP' to pay off later. Though it might not be exactly a total "all your XP goes to paying off your debt" thing. Could be where something like half or two thirds of incoming XP is 'taxed' to fill the debt. Net effect is it gets harder to lvl up until the debt is paid, though having a pecentage 'tax' would probably help keep people interested.

But actually, there would be no real reason to complain the way I see it. Suppose I start out as a person with 0 metallurgy skill and want to reach lvl 10 in game. I have to gain all the necessary XP to train, have to get all the money to pay for it (I have no idea how much I actually need... those sneaky NPCs seem to just yank it out of my pocket while I'm distracted with the lesson... :thumbdown:) then I have to get several hundred iron ores to melt and then if I'm lucky someone with the skill to make irion ingots to help me out... its quite a hassle.

On the other hand, if I could bypass that and just say "I already am at lvl 5 so I can make iron ingots if I want" even if I have to pay off a debt in XP to get that option its probably worth it... just to avoid the hassle of starting out.


On a sort of related note:
I did a report on Goldfarming and paid Leveling in my English class. Its about how some people will pay real money just so they don't have to go through the hassle and time to get a decent character or equipment. I think the problem you address here is related to that. If we can find a decent way for people to get the character they want without 'cheating' out those who had to work to attain the same relative skill level, it could really help make PlaneShift stand out from other MMORPGs.

Hadfael

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2006, 05:29:42 am »
roleplaying...with all the different views on it I have seen, it sounds like a vague concept...

I am probably wrong - At least in the words I use to express it, but no everyone is fluent in english - but this is how I see things.

There are various ways to play the game and call it roleplaying because you play a role. The differences are in the ways you play the role and the roles you choose. I'll focus on 2 ways to play roles:

- Pretending:
You create a character with an history and motivations. You explore the limitations and possibilities of his beliefs and moods.
You can one day play the role of a king and the day after play a farmer character. To do this you need to have a char creation able to instantly create a king or a strong warrior skilled in training. You play once a poor orphan girl, the day after a brute warrior, and the day after a sneaking thief. The goal is to experiment various situations, live various lives, test the consequencies of different choices in the same settings.
--I also mentioned others ways to pretend things happening in you role are the only ones real for you in another controversary thread : Pretending you burn the tavern and ignore everyone playing the role of a customer (a.k.a. paralell role playing)--

- Role playing the level way
"Every men are created equals..."
You start your character at the bottom level of the society. With a story reflecting your youth. You have to grow, learn and progress depending on your choices. You can become a farmer or claim the title of king. Whatever your goal is, you have to chose your path to reach it. You can decide to aim. Goals and paths are defined in RPGs as alignments (I miss Draklar to flame me for saying this). Right now you can max up all stats, but the idea of the variety of skills is to allow various choices of the ones to raise and the ones to neglect.
In this case, the purpose is to live an interactive saga. Play the char from birth to death and maybe beyond.


The reason roleplaying games are using leveling, alignments and stats raising is that they rely on the fact you use the second way to play your role.
IMO roleplaying is not only playing a role, it's evolving in an imaginary world.
Pretending is "playing a role", but it's not roleplaying. (maybe does it clarify what Easton quoted from me in his signature)

Exemples of pretending: (bad exemples on purpose, in order to point its dangers, but seen ingame)
A new char spawns at the plaza and pretends to be ruler of the world, tax collector, Orctach, ... Thus he imposes his role to the virtual world.
A char burns Kada's tavern and ignores everyone playing the role of a customer. (a.k.a parallel RPing)

In general "spawning" a grown up char breaks the continuity of the game world. And from what I remember, creating a "persistent world" is one of PS goals. Persistent means that what is done by one char day 1 don't have to be ignored by another spawned on day 2.
When you create a char, not only does he arrive in a world based on the "settings" but also populated by people who existed before it.
You might oppose that you are able to spawn a char with a background story ready to interract with pple you met the day before under another ID. But can everyone do it? How can the game define at char creation if you will play your role in a cooperation with others' virtual life or use your stats to impose your new role to the existing world?

Under the moon

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2006, 09:40:36 pm »
You are completely wrong in what you define as role playing vs pretending. It is just your opinion, as you state. Role playing is playing a role. It is becoming a character, whether that character is a fuddlebum farmboy, or a twenty year veteran of the Hydlaa Guard. It is not up to you to decide for everyone what role they will play.

Role playing is NOT leveling. Leveling can BE roleplaying, but not the other way around.

Let me define pretending. It is the practice of making up something that is not really there. In an RPG, that equates to pretending you have stats that you do not, or pretending you have a job you do not. Pretending is standing face to face with someone and typing out a battle, or a slap. Pretending IS burning down the tavern. None of that is seen, so it is in fact not real.

Roleplaying is acting upon things that actually do affect your character, such as attributes, stats, attacks, sickness, and even weather. Yes, leveling is grouped in here as well, but it is not the ONLY thing. In fact, it should be one of the most minor things focused on in a true RPG. If the game would support creating a fully developed character with stats and attributes, then yes, by god, that would be roleplaying. Is there leveling? Could be, could not be. That depends on the character you are playing. But it is NOT needed.

Right now, most people are pretending. More and more, roleplayers are IGNORING game features because they see them as NOT supporting true roleplaying. How many players actually RP by their stats? I am telling you for a fact that it is very few. What does that say about the game? In my opinion, is blatantly states that it is failing in its main purpose. If people have to pretend their way around things that their character would not normally do, SUCH as intensive training, there is something very wrong.

Your first example bleeds into the second. People are doing ALL of those things now. You are alos forcing a role on everyone with your 'starting at the bottom level of society'. You are forcing us to start as youths. You are forcing us to take the path of the leveler. Frankly, that path is considered as flawed.

Strip away the efforts of the community. Strip away the rules of the GMs. Strip away all the lives we have created that did not start as you say. Strip PS down, and just view it for its features, and projected features. It is nothing more than an empty game for leveling. There is nothing that makes the game more roleplaying than a first person shooter.

Some people have mistaken me for being against stats and leveling. I am not. I am, however, against being forced to go OUT of character to play the role I wish. Roleplaying should be fun, and based entirely on the stats and attributes of your character, not pretending. But how can that be if you are either: A. bored out of your mind doing something you do not thing your character would be doing. B. You role is not supported by your stats, and you have to spend endless hours getting there.

And it is a myth that every man is created equal. Forcing that into a game detracts for the realism, not adds to it. Everyone keeps whining that everything has to be fair and balanced. For what purpose? So that no one 'wins'? Think about that.

You 'roleplaying' is not the only way. It is not even the most chosen way. That is why people are pretending, and will continue to do so, no matter how many shiny new features you add. People are not roleplaying because of these features, they are roleplaying -despite- them.

You are confusing the purpose of this wish. It is not to pretend. You seem to thing if everyone can make a character with exactly the stats they want at 'spawn' then they will 'pretend' to suddenly be able to take over the world. How is that even relevant? Do you think just because a new player comes in with higher stats, they will be allowed to proclaim themselves on high as king, or impose his will on everyone? What the hell do you think we are? Stupid?

"Omgozorz! that N00b has way better stats than mine! I shud fall down and do what he says as my new king!"
"He has high stats on creation, therefore we must let him burn down the tavern"

Your entire point is based on things that would not happen. Someone trying to make themselves higher than the game allows would be laughed out of the plaza, just as they are now. Parallel RP would still happen, but would not become any more 'real' just because someone started with higher stats. That is completely ungrounded.

What you are implying is a form of elitism which I am against. You are basically saying that people's roles do not count until they do get to higher levels...then we should let them burn down the tavern.

Your examples are going to happen, and have, whether you can create higher stats or not. Then they will be ignored and forgotten. That is besides the point.

The last point you make is more than wrong, it is the opposite of how it truly feels. I question what continuity you are even talking about. People came and go all the time. Persistent means it is always on, and the greater story is always going, nothing more. It has nothing to do with what the individual players do. Unless you intend to start to punish evildoers for what they do one day, then forget on the next, your point is invalid.

Your argument that a new and fully developed character will start ruining everyone's world by suddenly appearing is completely false. The reason is, that ALL characters appear that way. Where did any of them come from? They did not just spawn at that point, did they? No, they came from somewhere, as would the developed characters. Many players say they were born and raised in Hydlaa. Does that ruin the continuity as well? No. It is up to other players to adapt, and take that in. OUR histories are not set in stone, and many people change them as they go. It is a requirement to be able to adapt in a game like this. the populations is -always- changing. That will never stop. There is a simple solution to your argument. As you log on as your new character, you see in large letters in the center of the screen “You dust off you cloths as you look upon <place> for the first time.” But that is not he only choice, just an example.

"Can everyone do it?"

Bluntly, why not? It is for the Devs to build the world. It is for us to fill it as we see fit. Don't like it? Then shut the server down and fill the game with NPCs that will do exactly as you program them, because real people never will.

As for my wish, it is valid, doable, and used by many other RPGs that are far deeper than PS is. The 'skill ladder' is the low man on the totem when it comes to roleplaying. In short, PS is very limited in its view of roleplaying.

As an example, I give you Krook. He came into PS as an old man. He was wise, very intelligent (ignoring the useless CC stats), and quite rude. He made many friends, despite being an old grump. He had a long history that no one else was part of. Did I break the continuity of the world with him by not leveling? No. People cried when he passed on in his sleep. He added to other character’s laves in ways that no leveling character could. He became as a grandfather figure to some of them. Your way of “RPing” would never have let Krook exist in the first place. So, I flat out state this: You are wrong, and PS’s limited view is wrong. Leveling is not the only way, it is just one way. Let there be others. Otherwise, people are just going to ‘pretend’ to have these higher levels to support their roleplaying anyways, just as most of us do now.

Pestilence

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2006, 11:06:22 pm »
Roleplaying is playing a role

Leveling is just a gamefeature needed not to get people wo be gods in day one. It's not roleplayin. Its a failsafe so RP isn't ruined by people who can't roleplay and to protect people from themselves who might be tempted to not roleplay otherwise

Dungeons and Dragons is one of the first tabletops that used this system and that is still around.

Do you start over with this game everytime you die? Some may actually do this but I think most don't have a level 1 character join a level 17 group. I also know most people who already played it several times aren't starting at level 1 anymore becuase although level 1 is good to get to know the game once you do it's no longer fun. So starting at a higher level when you have already played before like in the clone idea I think is a very good idea. There are both gamemechanic reasons and also RP reasons to do this. Already listed so wont make the whole list again ;)

The RP suggestion from Moon I like aswell. You already see variants of this in several games. Guildwars for example has two types of characters aswell so people can focus on what they want. I would however feel this is an option that should have to be unlocked somehow so the new people don't massively use it. If this is through a good quest system or through leveling or through GMmanaged events.. it's all possible.

but specially with things like the wipes it isnt realistic RPwise to have to restart everytime. Specially if you have already been roleplaying it.

I would however say you chose what you want and it's set NO LEVELING at all. Then you have a true character only used for roleplaying. Perhaps have the GMevents give you some bonusses for what your roleplayed but thats it.

The Shadow Nose

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2006, 12:42:38 am »
I think the basic problem is that each 'character' is essentially two characters. The role-paying character with the feelings and story and the game character witht the actual in-game stats and skills (I think Under the Moon pointed this out).

And those two can have probelms actually conforming with eachother. For example, the only way in-game for a person to get XP to train anything is to either kill monsters or to mine for ore. This pretty much prevents anybody who wants to either never kill animals (like a pacifist character) or someone who never wants to mine ore (like the wizend old wizard who studies books on ancient magic) from ever really being able to advance their skills without going out-of-character.


So, essentially the present sytem of leveling up skills is defective. If people want to do get access to better skills and ability they need to either kill monster for XP (which is boring) or mine up ore (which is even more boring and really stupid for that purpose since you get really low XP and in order to make use of the ore you have to take huge long walks on foot in and out of town).

If you want to encourage role-playing, find a way to actually reward role-playing in-game. I think pestilence's idea on eliminating leveling all together and replacing it with GM bonuse may have some actual appeal to it. Or have some way for people to award others with experience, possibly through character created quests or something.

Karyuu

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2006, 01:04:17 am »
What I see primarily is this Path of the Roleplayer suggestion arises from a lack of many things to do in-game. As stated, you can either mine or kill to get something useful, and that's very limiting. But what no one seems to be bringing up is that we plan on having dozens upon dozens of more activities in the future that will allow a very wide variety of trades, jobs, and (better functioning) quests. The training system itself is bound to be adjusted, and you might have a whole new feel of the game entirely.

I don't like "temporary solutions" that may end up being removed when more is in place. It asks the dev team to take a time-out from working on tasks that are meant to actually progress the game, and it asks for several adjustments from the players themselves.

I feel that this suggestion is something that should be made when the game feels more complete - to see if perhaps later this dissatisfaction will diminish as the number of in-game activities grows and therefore allows characters greater flexibility.
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Under the moon

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2006, 02:03:59 am »
You mistake my meaning. You can put infinite new things in the game, but that will not change that we still have to go out of character to achieve the 'level' of character we wish to play. I do not mean it as a shortcut to a higher level. What I am saying is that some characters are older, more mature, or more skilled than Creation allows. Being forced to 'level' when you are playing a twenty year veteran of the army breaks the realism and 'continuity of the game, not adds to it.

This is not about adding features to play the game. It is about adding a way to roleplay the character you wish to. Some people do not wish to become a warrior, musician, or businessman. The wish to -be- one. Leveling kills these types of characters and disappoints the people that wish to play them.

Karyuu

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2006, 02:10:17 am »
The very design of the game however is that you do not come in with an older character. You're not a veteran of any wars, you're not a forgotten government official, nor are you an ancient doctor. Your interesting history does not begin outside of the game and growing in your head - it is supposed to begin the moment you step into Yliakum, and grow inside the world. If such limitations seem unbearable to a few people, you're missing the point of the game and Talad's design for it. Your character growth and history comes from your interaction with the people inside Yliakum, and if you want to be a veteran of a war, you must become one - not already be one.
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Under the moon

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2006, 02:49:32 am »
Then, your game is limited in scope, and not for me.

Roleplaying is not leveling, but leveling can be roleplaying. The way it is now, leveling is the only way to roleplay using game mechanics. More and more players are not training at all because you are cutting out the way they play.

Truthfully, roleplaying is not even required to 'play' this game. But leveling is required to roleplay. It is not I that am missing the point of the game. It is the game that is missing the point of roleplaying.

Right now, I am doing my best to work around game mechanics and create something enjoyable for others.

Karyuu

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2006, 02:51:52 am »
The way it is now, leveling is the only way to roleplay using game mechanics.

Emphasis mine. Doing the best you can in the meantime is exactly what we are asking. I don't think that players are stopping to train because we are "cutting" them out. A simpler reason could be that training right now only helps in killing or mining, which again brings me back to a low number of activities at the present time, and which is going to rise very much in the future.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 02:54:10 am by Karyuu »
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Pestilence

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2006, 02:58:07 am »
As I see it leveling should indeed be part of the game and I feel that atleast how I suggested it that leveling wouldn't be gone.

Most people would still chose to go with the normal character to level and the roleplayer would also be leveling of sorts but then with GMevents what in my eyes is a lot more realistic.

Ofcourse leveling through GM event will only accumalate to something if you have been roleplaying a long time, but it seems that atleast that way one has a clear path of the roleplayer that in my eyes is still missing even when I imagine things being added and smoothed over. The emphasis still seems to remain on leveling and not roleplaying.

*edit typo*
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 03:06:15 am by Pestilence »

Under the moon

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Re: Path of the Roleplayer.
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2006, 03:11:14 am »
The emphasise still seems to remain on leveling and not roleplaying.

Yes.

Now, later, it will not matter. The Path of the Leveler will -always- be the Path of the Leveler. Add new skills. Add new crafts. Take out killing completely. It will still be the same. You ARE cutting me out.