Author Topic: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?  (Read 4737 times)

Parallo

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2006, 11:46:34 am »

Maybe my views are biased by table-RPGs. You won't get any good game if it's the first time you gather together, unless the players are good and the Master is very good. And we have no Master on PS, most of the time. My point is that a good RP session (on table-RPGs) needs preparation, and not only skill. A lot of preparation.

I definitely agree that "improvising" is where the fun comes from. But in a table game the Master will keep players "on track", keeping the (hopefully right) balance between "improvisation" and "direction". Because in any story there must be a direction, right? So if I have to find something in your post, I don't agree on:
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there cannot be a "practicing mode", for there is no script, it's only improvising, and will always be.
Without a Master, you need much more coordination among players. And that's not "improvising", it's keeping a direction. And you need OOC talk for that.


We haven't needed any preperation or OOC talk IG at all really. Why on earth would you want the little ammount of unnessesary OOC mixed in with your RP. Its just one step closer to Runescape. If all the players went around talking about stats and what not in the open then the new players would see it and assume that the RP guides and settings were largly ignored like in other "RPGs."
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

zanzibar

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2006, 04:46:16 pm »
Oh.  I'll agree with that - using brackets does not make OOC chatter ok.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 03:32:55 pm by zanzibar »
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themule

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2006, 02:55:26 pm »
We haven't needed any preperation or OOC talk IG at all really. Why on earth would you want the little ammount of unnessesary OOC mixed in with your RP. Its just one step closer to Runescape. If all the players went around talking about stats and what not in the open then the new players would see it and assume that the RP guides and settings were largly ignored like in other "RPGs."

I take you deny any value to preparation, and any role for the Master in a board RPG? Yes? No? In what RPing on PS is supposed to be different? You thing you don't need a Master? You think you don't need a story? Ever played D&D or other board RPGs at all?

And please... "all the players went around talking about stats" has nothing to do with RP preparation and direction at all!

edit -
Once again let me state these my own ideas on RPing. Feel free not to share them. If you don't agree, say it, but please explain too. "We haven't needed any preperation or OOC talk IG at all really" - why?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 02:57:22 pm by themule »

Parallo

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2006, 04:12:50 pm »
IG. As in In Game. Its not nessesary IN GAME. There are forums with PM systems and there are tells if abosolutly unavoidable but why include it in with the IC? Why?
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

themule

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2006, 07:18:22 pm »
If you mean, "use group chat instead", I'm ok. That's what I do. If you mean /tell, that makes no sense, if you have to say something to other 5 people. Do we agree that 99% of what you write in the group/guild chat window is OOC, inherently, and there's no need to add []?

The Master is 50% of the RP game. He does nothing and everything at the same time. PS is different, but I think you still need both preparation (we agree you can do that on forums) and direction IG. IG as In Game, yeah. That's the Master's job in a table RPG.

Listen, I've already wrote this is my idea of RP.

Saying "No" won't make me change my mind. Explaining me why you feel you don't need a Master in your RP (or enough player OOC cooperation to overcome the lack of), that would help. In my view, there can't be any good RP without a good Master directing, or very good RPers who continuosly (well almost) cooperate to operate the role of the Master. As the adventure goes on, that is.

I agree that with very good preparation, this OOC IG chat can be somehow reduced. But I don't see PS (just) as a featured enviroment where a small closed group of players gather to RP on their own. The big value here is that any time you may meet other unknown RPers, and kiss goodbye (almost) to all your preparation and welcome IG OOC coordination. I hope now you see my point.

Parallo

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2006, 12:26:07 pm »
Yes guild and group is OOC.
If you mean, "use group chat instead", I'm ok. That's what I do. If you mean /tell, that makes no sense, if you have to say something to other 5 people. Do we agree that 99% of what you write in the group/guild chat window is OOC, inherently, and there's no need to add []?

The Master is 50% of the RP game. He does nothing and everything at the same time. PS is different, but I think you still need both preparation (we agree you can do that on forums) and direction IG. IG as In Game, yeah. That's the Master's job in a table RPG.

Listen, I've already wrote this is my idea of RP.

Saying "No" won't make me change my mind. Explaining me why you feel you don't need a Master in your RP (or enough player OOC cooperation to overcome the lack of), that would help. In my view, there can't be any good RP without a good Master directing, or very good RPers who continuosly (well almost) cooperate to operate the role of the Master. As the adventure goes on, that is.

I agree that with very good preparation, this OOC IG chat can be somehow reduced. But I don't see PS (just) as a featured enviroment where a small closed group of players gather to RP on their own. The big value here is that any time you may meet other unknown RPers, and kiss goodbye (almost) to all your preparation and welcome IG OOC coordination. I hope now you see my point.

* Parallo points down.

Themule, once you've been around for a while, you'll understand why OOC chatter is such a nuisance.

Besides this isn't a table top RP. This is the internet. It is filled with fools and if they were not shunned for it they would not speak IC at all. I'd prefer to... wait... What is your problem with brackets anyway? Are you too lazy to type them?

I don't see the need of a 'Master' in your character's day to day life. In events OOC just mixed in would ruin the immersievness(sp?)

I hope you see my point.
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

themule

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2006, 08:21:34 pm »
Besides this isn't a table top RP. This is the internet. It is filled with fools and if they were not shunned for it they would not speak IC at all. I'd prefer to... wait... What is your problem with brackets anyway? Are you too lazy to type them?

I hate quoting myself...
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I have no problems in using [] for my OOC.

I don't see the need of a 'Master' in your character's day to day life. In events OOC just mixed in would ruin the immersievness(sp?)

I hope you see my point.

No I don't, because [] are keys on a keyboard. People have been playing RPG for 30 years w/o keyboards. And never felt they lacked []'s. A table RPG session is a continuos mix of IC and OOC. One may argue that that what's RPing is. Only when you want to stress on the acting part, and for example write scripts and wear costumes (which overall is uncommon, it's a special version of RPG), you ban or reduce OOC chat.  Usually, there's a mix of different levels... strict IC, OOC description of an IC action ("I swing my sword" is OOC, in the sense that the player communicates to the Master what his char is doing or trying to do, yet it's IC action, of course), OOC game mechanisms operation (rolling dice for one), OOC description ("Master, I'm looking north from the top of the tower, what do I see?" "A forest" - note that one should really say "Master, I'm making my character look north, what does he see?" but no one would be picky enough not to use the short form), OOC direction (Master: "no, that band of mercenaries is not going to help you because you simply don't look rich enough for them to bother listening to you").

You think in PS things are different? Really? What about a group info window? Is that IC or OOC? I tell you, it's half and half. Knowing the HPs of your party makes sense, you may be able to see if one is lightly or badly wounded. But knowing the mana level is much harder to find any IC rationale for. And the bars work for someone who is at the opposite site of the Arena, too, and that's purely OOC.

How can you say that some words in the Main Chat window ruin the immersiveness (?) when your screen is already cluttered with a mix of OOC and IC inputs, including flashing guild and group tabs (whose content is OCC), bars of all kinds floating around, messages about someone who has just killed a MOB way outside your line of sight (in the default configuration you see all, including stance changes), and so on?

I'm sure your brain is already  very good in filtering anything that would ruin your "feeling IC". And it's also very good at classifying the various pieces of information "this is IC, this is OOC related to IC, this is completely OOC". Among the tons of info you receive every second by looking at the monitor, I fail to understand in what a few OOC words appearing in the Main window are so peculiar.

That said, I've always used [] when saying something OOCly in public. But I saw that those who don't know what they are, don't understand why i'm using then, and those who know what they are for, would recognize the OOC speech anyway...

Parallo

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2006, 03:54:17 pm »
Yes fair enough there is lots of OOC info on the screen but do you even have to look at that? I don't bother with it half the time and if I did I would know that it OOC before I even looked. The main tab in the chat box on the other hand is something one has to look at.
It is also something that is supposed to be totaly IC... All the time. That is the way we are asked to play the game. That is what makes the game what it is. If you don't think they're nessesary go and try to RP in one of the internet games where people don't have to.
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

Eublepharis

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2006, 12:29:50 am »
I sneeking around since 5 days with a blind (at the moment helpless) char and nearly nobody even stop to say hello. But to start at the begining i was killed by the otlaws (there will be a revange for that ;) ) for 6 days ago, they stollen my sweat poor char her stick toom, so she has to croching over the floor to find her way out of the DR. Finaly After 2 days!! someone stopt and helpt me (thank you for that ;) ) ( i mean he mustnt help me this is not the matter on this threat) but all the others run simply across me, without even say an grettings or reaction on what i wrote in the main channel.

Funny, this thread got so off-topic...

Read Mad_Mordigen's post, she doesn't even try to speak proper English, how does she expect anybody to RP with her?  Nobody can understand her...

I wish I found her "croching over the floor to find her way out of the DR" I would have taken a screenie :)


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themule

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2006, 10:40:02 am »
It is also something that is supposed to be totaly IC... All the time. That is the way we are asked to play the game. That is what makes the game what it is.

Too bad it's not true. There are messeges that are completely unrelated to your IC position in the world. Like seeing someone change stance when it's outside your line of sight (already pointed out), maybe outside the room you are in. Face it, the Main chat windows is far from pure IC. And no other chat tab is IC either, unless you're using /tell to someone next to you to "implement" IC whispers. The system tab is cluttered with OOC info, too.

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If you don't think they're nessesary go and try to RP in one of the internet games where people don't have to.

Now say where I've ever written such a thing. Have I ever complained about enforcing RP? (well I've played a MUD where RP is not enforced, and there's more RP there than on PS for sure... there's no kill stealing either, even if nothing prevents it - i take MUDders are different beasts from MMORPGers.)

I'm fine with the RP requirement. I have troubles with your unexplainable (to me) horror for OCC chat (not speaking of random OOC chat, here, but of course of RP related OCC chat, such as explaining OCCly the reasons for some IC action). My reasoning:

1) RPers of all the world for decades have been playing RPGs by mixing IC and OOC w/o any trouble or need to use []; I think that (real time) OOC info greatly improves RP; this has nothing to do with RP or not. To me, by definition, RPing is mixing IC and OOC (game related, of course). Not to me only, I think any D&D player would agree.

2) this game already mixes OOC info in (for exaclty the reason stated in 1)): considering the whole screen, OCC info dominates and also in the Main chat tab OCC is present anyway, from the game itself. Is it IC that I see that Mr. X killed a Trepor while I'm fighting a Gladiator inside the Arena? Of course not. Is it IC that I see the name of characters talking to me, even if I've never met them before? of course not... the list goes on.
The point being that you don't realize that's OOC because your brain already filters that out. Recently someone introduced himself to me (char vs char) after a short conversation. That kind of surprised me, since there are two different ways to handle that OOC info (I already knew his name of course): one is to ignore it and pretend not to know the name, like he did, or think of an implicit introduction when you start chatting the first time, like I did. That's because I come from a game where you have to introduce yourself, before knowing each others' name. W/o formal introduction, all you see is a '<short description> elf/human/...', even when they talk to you. When my brains sees the name, it does this OOC->IC translation "since i know his name, we've already introduced ourselves". His brain simple deletes it. Both are correct, IC-wise. No matter how you treat it to make it compatible with your IC experience, that OOC info is present, right in the Main chat window.

3) useless, unrelated OOC chat ruins the RP experience, no doubt, but it does anyway, with or without []'s. Related OOC improves it. Sometimes a brief OOC note makes a good shortcut for lenghty, boring, overall useless IC explanation (maybe on some almost irrelevant point), speeding up the pace of RP a lot. Sure, I can use [] for that, and I do, but 99.9% of the times I realize that any decent RPer would easily recognize it as OOC and integrate it in his RP experience with no effort.

4) I'm not saying []'s should be banned, or avoided, or that they are always useless... no, sometimes when I mistype something (or type in the wrong window) I type [sorry], just to make it clear it's not part of the IC dialog. Spelling corrections sometimes are needed, and I tend to use [] for that, too. I may have problems with spelling or typing, but my char should not look drunk.

In summary, I think that:
- OOC random chat should be banned, as it is now;
- OOC RP related chat should be allowed, as it is now;
- []'s make OOC random chat no more acceptable... the rule is "don't", and not "do, but use []'s";
- there's little point in enforcing []'s for RP related OOC, as any decent RPer is able to recognize it;
- when ambiguity really arises, use []'s to make it clear it's OCC. In a table RPG this is seldom necessary. In  text conversation it's easier to misunderstand, that's why brackets sometime are useful.
- sometimes != everytime

Now this post is long enogh... I'd really like to explain by example, with some RPG action. Maybe next time.

Parallo

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2006, 11:01:10 am »
So what your saying is that OOC should be mixed in with IC when its of relevence? Asides from the attack stances, which I'm not to sure of(I tend to not pay any attention to whats in green,) what else is there in the main? Anything that is shown to do with your character on the screen is IC. Your health, mana etc. as that is the only way of us knowing. Of course we don't say I have 86% health but we would know how injured we are.

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If you don't think they're nessesary go and try to RP in one of the internet games where people don't have to.

Now say where I've ever written such a thing.
I was not talking about RP but about seperating OOC and IC. Anything else I've played is a mess.


If all the chat you hear is OOC then prehaps your spending your time with the wrong side of the community.
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

Idoru

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2006, 02:29:57 pm »
Quote
Read Mad_Mordigen's post, she doesn't even try to speak proper English, how does she expect anybody to RP with her?


The original poster is obviously TRYING to speak proper english, just because they are incapable of spelling correctly influences nothing. I dont  see why people cant see past the fact that the spelling is bad and just try to understand what the player is actually saying. To me the meaning is far more important than the spelling or grammar.

Not everyone has been born in an english speaking country or had the advantage of a decent education in foreign languages.

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Funny, this thread got so off-topic...

Is it meant to be some sort of funny joke that you mention the fact that things have gone off topic and then go and make your own off topic remark?

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Xoraxa

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Re: Hm didnt there was sayed this is an Rp game?
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2006, 08:37:19 pm »
The worth of the []-brackets

@ Themule:
I was an AD&D roleplayer and I liked it a lot. I thank you for trying to explain some important mechanisms of roleplay (I myself am thinking a lot about the masters role in an MMORPG - I find it somehow given in the responsible way many guild leaders act and create RP happenings) and for trying to distinguish the relations between Player-Charakter-Game Interface-other Charakters-other Players ...
Having read all the posts in this thread I find it amazing what level the discussion has reached.
So now I see 3x real worth of that discussed brackets:

1. They help to be thinking in that different levels of acting and shifting the levels simultaneously with other players.
I consider this above discussion as very important for the PS game because it implies the question: Are we roleplaying using the computers and www technology or are we playing computer games just with the feeling to be part of a fantastic environment ... ?

2. Noticing this unusual brackets in the different chat windows gives every newbie the clue: Here is something to explain: RP is not just chatting, you are controlling two things at the same time: players and characters interaction. Wondering about the brackets this is what i first learned (ah [] here is where the guys are making the difference) - and I think it is the most important thing in PS. I see a lot of fine RP here (never looked at other games). Playing the game as a completely unexperienced MMORPG user with not really fluid English knowledge (you surely noticed yet;-) I was really happy to be given that [] clues for my understanding of phrases coming from allover the game and its chat tabs flooding my translating brain.

3. In my own roleplaying acts this [] helps me to think about this vital aspect of distinguishing. I agree, that I would not need them. With some months playing PS now my confidence in ma English has rosen up (I even dare to post here) and so did my knowledge of the games background and of the interface. But the [] help me just to remember what i actually am doing. Especially in nighttimes after havin played some hours or after larger training or exploring sessions (when PS is more like any other computergame) it helps me to stumble over a [] just to wake up thinking "Oh shure, i am actually roleplaying here." And when I am reading [] I always think "Oh, nice, here is another player which cares about the Quality of RP"

Finally: I agree, that we maybe would not need [], but as they are a mighty symbol and reminder for the RP character of Planeshift I use them as often as I can (sometimes i forget them for the given reasons - especially in /guild and /tell chat).