Author Topic: Line of endless text in character description.  (Read 2281 times)

Under the moon

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Line of endless text in character description.
« on: October 13, 2006, 03:13:42 am »
All right folks, time for a little rant. Ready? Go.

Let me first start out by linking you to this thread: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=25432.0

Mmhhmm. Don't do that. But, there is another problem that needs to be addressed, as the topic of this thread states. I have noticed more and more people with seemingly endless text in descriptions and backstory. Some of the descriptions are going to the extreme, listing every stitch that they are wearing. In a story, that is not a bad thing. But in the game, trying to read all that is a pain, and by the time you DO read it all, the person has wandered off, thinking you are afk. Besides the fact that it is tweaking a bit, assuming my character looked that close at you in the first place. If you want to go into such great detail, -first- put in your description what someone would see in just a quick glance. Hair color, eyes, a -simple- and concise view of what you are wearing. Just the basics.

Now, one thing that should NOT be in your description is you character's ENTIRE backstory, or any at all. Only what can be seen, heard, touched, smelt, and felt should be in there. It is a character description, not "This is your life". That is what this http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?board=15.0 is for. For one thing, we can not see that just by looking at you. Well, maybe my empath could, but he wouldn't really care, as trees are more interesting. I have a major problem with the default of the game putting custom 'events' in the character description to start. It puts the wrong ideas in new folks heads.

Going back to Karyuu's thread, this excess of text causes the exact same problem. Not only that, I have seen those same empty lines after the endless text. Not that I care about the "You evaluate" part, as my characters don't fight. But it still is a problem.

Another thing I have seen, is severe 'tweaking' in them. "You feel fear as you look upon..."  "You notice your money is missing..."  "As you view this strange creature you are unaware that he is also viewing you from his peripheral vision."

This is as wrong in description as it is in RP. Godmodding or tweaking, you can not say what another character feels, sees, or acts.

What a proper description should look like (a basic one) :

"He is an average look man, if a bit on the thin side, as if*1 missing more than a few meals. His gray streaked hair reaches past his shoulders, and is held in a tight ponytail with a leather cord. His beard is well kept, and bears the same gray streaking as his hair. You may notice*2  his eyes are a slate blue, and look upon his surroundings with a steady gaze. His hands are thick skin and weathered, as if*1 he has been working for much of his life. He looks to be*3 in his mid thirties. If you come close enough, you will smell the slight odor of woodsmoke and fish.
*4
His clothing is that of a peasant, though clean and still sturdy. You may notice*2 his boots are worn and covered in dust.
*4
If you look more closely....*5

As a child...*6

Let's go through those numbers:

*1: "as if"  This is what your character sees. You can not just state that "He has not eaten in days." I -as my character- can not see that you have not eaten in days, so can only assume that. But do not put in "You assume he has not eaten in days." That is putting thoughts in my character's head.

*2: "May notice" this gives others the choice of noticing or not. If you say "You notice that..." again, that is putting thoughts in my character's head.

*3: "looks to be"  Does my character know you are in your mid thirties? Not unless you told him, so you should not give an exact age. Or, if you do, use "about 35" after “looks to be”, or similar phrase. If it is not something my character can not see and know, then you should not be putting it in your text.

*4: One line of empty space. This is to break up the text a bit, and give a division when you start to describe something else about your character. In this example, the man's features were first, followed by his clothing. If you think the clothing would be noticed first, then put it first.

*5: If you chose, put a more detailed description here. This is where you can put the exact number of buttons on your coat, or the exact shade of that stain. But still, nothing belongs in here that another character would not see....if it matters! If it does not really matter to who your character is or acts, leave it out. Let people's imaginations fill in the gaps.

*6: NO NO NO! This does not belong here for many reasons. One, other characters will not se or know any of this. It detracts for roleplaying because you miss out on players trying to get to know you. They are not going to ask about what you have wriiten out in detail. RP then becomes redundant if you have to tell the same story to people who do not know you, be saw the text. It also creates the same problem as the empty lines. Lastly, it will all vanish in a wipe. That should scare some of you who are writing books in your descriptions. It also take so long to read that people start to lose out on the RP going on around them. I read fast, and have started to read some of the long texts, only to have the person walk away. Think of the slow readers, and type kindly.

The sum-up: Keep it a short as you can. Only list details that matter to the role that you are playing, and will be noticed right away by others. And keep the backstories in the forum...where they belong.

Karyuu

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2006, 03:29:05 am »
*applaud*

Way too many times I find myself really curious about someone's description, right-click to see it, and am so overwhelmed by all the backstories when I'm just looking for the character's appearance that I give up the scrolling right there and then. You don't want to turn people away with your description - it's there to draw them in, to offer them a glimpse of your character. Words are very powerful, so don't overdo them. You can sometimes give away your character's entire history through a short description. Rough, callous hands, darkened skin, frayed cotton shirt - there's an idea already.

Another thing I really want to comment on is Mary Sue characters. Mary Sues are awful - they are drop-dead gorgeous or approaching it, but never aware of their beauty. They are elegant and sweet, with graceful "feline" forms, introverted but extroverted at the same time, deeply mysterious, lonely but have a ton of friends, and expect everyone else's characters to revolve around theirs. The godmodding/tweaking that Moon mentioned reminded me of this instantly. Mary Sues are annoying and dramatic exxagerations, most often with tragic backgrounds and "uncommon" traits, skills they shouldn't have at their age but somehow do due to their Mary Sue greatness.

Folks, don't attempt to create a "perfect" character - and even if you are unable to resist, don't go on and on in your description about how attractive so-and-so is and how his/her eyes sparkle with an inner light and how his/her voice is the sound of silver bells. If your character is so awesomely impressive, your roleplay will make people remember it. Not your description, which may immediately turn some people off because they have no interest roleplaying with your projected vision of cliche perfection.

That is all :3
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Suno_Regin

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2006, 03:33:23 am »
It is really annoying, especially people who have descriptions (mostly fenkis) saying they look at you and smile and turn back to whatever they're doing, or they walk up and give you a hug and go back to what they're doing or something. The description shouldn't have your character doing actions, it's just bad roleplay.

Kalika

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2006, 03:36:26 am »
what if you put something like "her love of all things good and beautiful incline her towards good deed, like generoisty and helping others out?"

or "her eyes shine with an innocent idealism?"

is that bad?


'she lies with her arms flung out as if to embrace the whole hyancinth-scented, watermelon-colored world.'

Suno_Regin

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2006, 03:38:11 am »
Yes, it is. People don't have much notice of sparkly nice eyes, despite what it says in your description. Just saying you have blue or green eyes helps out people who aren't smart enough to tell someone's emotions through their eyes. And the first line, something about inclining to kindness and all that, that would be part of your personality, which should be shown through roleplay, not your description.

DESCRIPTION IS FOR LOOKS/SMELLS AND NOTHING ELSE.

Kalika

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2006, 03:50:53 am »
i can agree that some of my description is a bit off

however i have to disagree with the strictness...

an intuitve person, or an observant one would notice that "piercing" eyes represent a certain trait in someone...same with "soft" eyes..etc

a person can use gestures to also show certain personality features that arent included in the description

....

i dunnos, i agree with a lot of this, but i think sometimes it gets taken too hardcore

'she lies with her arms flung out as if to embrace the whole hyancinth-scented, watermelon-colored world.'

Karyuu

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2006, 03:56:05 am »
I'm of the opinion that "piercing" or "soft" eyes are a fine description, but they shouldn't complete the picture for the observer. For one person, that piercing look can mean something entirely different from what you intended, and that's the beauty of it - we can't force others to see us as we want them to, they draw their own conclusions that we later help shape through interaction. So putting "He has piercing eyes" is okay, but not "He has piercing eyes that allude to his vehement lifestyle."
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Suno_Regin

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2006, 03:58:41 am »
I was gonna say something similar to what Karyuu said, but she said it better...

Anyway, descriptions should only include very small details about the eyes (like the piercing thing or whatever), and the rest would be "His clothes have dry mud on them" or something like that. It's just for what someone can see only, and even if it's in your description they might not notice your piercing eyes because they don't pay paticular attention to them. I still say eyes should be measured in color, not anything deep like emotions or traits, that's what the roleplay is supposed to describe. The descriptions themselves give looks and only looks.

Kalika

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2006, 04:04:54 am »
yeah thats what i meant, leave it up to the person to decode what "piercing" means
that way they can use their intuition, have SOMETHING to use

but still wont describe in detail...because if you have "blue" eyes, hows that gonna distinguish you from the other person that has "blue eyes", there can still be a quality if its short and sweet...which i think thts what you were speaking of karyuu

'she lies with her arms flung out as if to embrace the whole hyancinth-scented, watermelon-colored world.'

Karyuu

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2006, 04:10:40 am »
I have brown eyes, but my eyes alone don't have to distinguish me from someone else who has brown eyes. I'm different from another person when I'm taken as a whole, and so it's better when you apply that to your character. If your character has one or two really striking features, highlighting that can be a good idea - but I think it would be overkill if you try to emphasize the unique qualities of every portion of your character. There is nothing wrong with having a description that seems "plain." That saying about not judging a book by its cover rings very true here.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Seytra

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2006, 04:15:42 am »
Obviously I fully agree that descriptions are for things that can be noticed by merely looking at the char, possibly from a distance through the tavern atmosphere.

Regarding the "she gives you a hug and turns back to whatever..." thing: this is particularly funny as I recall a description of some person that said "he smells awfully, like a man who hasn't washed or changed clothes in weeks". Now I wonder if that first description would apply even if that second character were to read her description. :)
Well, actions and thoughts on either side shouldn't be in a description.
what if you put something like "her love of all things good and beautiful incline her towards good deed, like generoisty and helping others out?"
Therefore, this is out of place, as it describes things that aren't visible to the causal observer.
or "her eyes shine with an innocent idealism?"
Ordinarily, I had regarded that as perfectly fine, even if the mention of "idealism" may be too much and should perhaps be changed into "her eyes have an innocent look to them".
This does put knowledge into the observer's char's mind, but it can be expected to be more or less an universal conclusion, i.e. one that most people will arrive at, and that those who don't, will know that they don't, and not do so.
If I see something in a description and I have reason to assume that it doesn't apply to my char, then I disregard it, anyway.

However, it is still trying to exert a measure of control over the other char, if only minor, so it might warrant reevaluation WRT it's necessity or alternatives creating the effect w/o explicitely stating it. However, that will normally lead to an additional paragraph, so I think there's a sort of tradeoff in some cases.

Phinehas

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2006, 04:25:18 am »
Bravo bravo. I agree totally. Carry on.

Under the moon

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2006, 04:29:06 am »
Most of the time I follow my own rules, but sometimes I will break them to make a point. Example, Aeshion:

"She has no haunted look to her eyes. She has no deep pain to reveal. She has no scares to hide. She is merely a very pretty Diaboli with jet black skin and dark red hair. She looks to be about twenty-four to twenty seven years of age.

If you wish to know more, you will just have to talk to her. I'll not abide by lazy people expecting to get all the info they think they need from a silly description."

Funny thing about that description is Aeshion is a mute. *laughs*
Iritatingly, within a half hour of playing, I ran into two people who had the 'cure' for this. Aeshion just laughed silently, gave a smile and walked away. :)

I think Hyuken's description is even shorter, and just says he is a young, thin Menki with his name on a nametag. I also think it says he is behind the bar. *grins*

*edit* Someone just suggested to me a character limit. Might be a good idea.

*edit 2* "This does put knowledge into the observer's char's mind, but it can be expected to be more or less an universal conclusion, i.e. one that most people will arrive at, and that those who don't, will know that they don't, and not do so."

This is easily solved with ""her eyes shine with an innocent idealism that will (or may) be obvious to most people"  that shows that it is a strong character trait that can be seen by others. the eyes do give away a lot. Adding the last part gives players an 'out' so they get to choose what they do see. Do not use this to an extreme, though. "You may see he has a lot of pain in his past and heart" is a missuse, and can not be seen. Any time you attach an emotion to a feature, you MUST give the impression that some characters may miss it, as some people are not good at reading others. Add to the mood, but don't overwelm it.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2006, 04:38:57 am by Under the moon »

Kezzik

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2006, 08:24:09 am »
more limitations to the freedom ingame? :\

yes I skipped the entire lot of monotonous rants, picking up only a few things, I'm not really fussed to bother reading all of it, fact is, I enjoy reading character descriptions, I find it more annoying the shorter they are, or simply ones saying that 'this dude is the ultimate warrior and would shmash your head in if you sneeze'

if you find a character description too long, don't read it, surely though, if you have time to play the game you have time to read a few extra lines

Karyuu

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Re: Line of endless text in character description.
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2006, 08:40:51 am »
I think the point of the "rants" was ultimately to make suggestions for players to better their roleplay, and help others as well. You're not just here to play by yourself, so if you can avoid doing some things that might annoy other people, it may be a good idea to avoid doing them. Life stories most certainly do not belong in descriptions, and it can be an irritating misuse of the feature. This thread is in no way a limitation on the freedom of the game, but a reminder of the particular feature's purpose. A good description is not a single line, but nor is it ten paragraphs in length. If we are to ignore suggestions other players make, we might as well play in a corner.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.