Is Spysweeper Retarded?

[Monketh]

You know, attempting to argue the superiority or just plain equality of a monopoly software on a forum dedicated to an open-source video game might be somewhat difficult.

[Induane]

You know, attempting to argue the superiority or just plain equality of a monopoly software on a forum dedicated to an open-source video game might be somewhat difficult.

Difficult but not impossible. I don't hate windows, I just have disagreements with business practices.  I don't blame MS for these tactics - its a business thing - they aren't the only ones doing it and they won't be the last.  There are good points to be discussed and it is definately true that with some dedication and effort a person can reasonably secure a windows box. 

But overall you are right.  Alot of people begin to enjoy games like PS because of its open feel.  Many people here use MS alternatives like BSD, Linux, and OSX.  These people have switched for various reasons but in the end most are not big MS Fanboys.

[ramlambmoo]

The words "O/S Flame war" were mentioned and so I had to be here...

1. There is no correlation between number of users and number of vulnerabilities.

Technically correct, but its not vulnerabilities that matter, its known vulnerabilities, and I would say there is some correlation between those and number of users.

2. Microsoft, as a corporation, has little reason to seek out and patch coded vulnerabilites which are not already known.

Thats like saying any company 'has little reason to improve its product'.  There is a huge reason, that is, consumer satisfaction, and making sure they dont go to another product.  But, I see your point, mainly in that there is no realistic alternative to windows that alot of people could go to, and so there is no reason to improve their product.

3. Linux is highly modularized, and proper user permissions can limit the extent of the damage.

Its a trade-off between security, and letting people who arent that great with computers be able to still use them. Im not sure how many normal windows users (read: 90+% of the modern western population) could handle properly managing permissions.  Maybe they could, but it would take lots of explaining, and alot of pain to do it. 

4. Most linux users aren't stupid enough to click here to get bonzai buddy.

Thats because intelligent people are attracted to linux.  If the 90% of windows users started using linux, they wouldnt magically grow some intelligence, and they'd still click that bonzai buddy.  Linux is blessed with a (relatively) intelligent user base.  That doesnt mean windows is crap software, it means that alot of the users are stupid.

You know, attempting to argue the superiority or just plain equality of a monopoly software on a forum dedicated to an open-source video game might be somewhat difficult.

Why does it matter where the discussion is being held?  Facts are facts.  Arguing on the internet with the intent to 'win' or convert people is retarded in the first place.  All you can realistically hope to do is put out your point and express your opinions.  And I'd much rather do that where people dont agree with my opinions, then preaching to the converted, per se.

I hear people using the "I don't trust software from the interenet it might be spyware itself" arguement alot, but come on. WIndows itself uses its little wga checker to send stats back to Microsoft. It dials home constantly.  Who knows what it does precisely.   

Who knows?  Uh, I could, using etheral if I could be bothered.  I dont base my computing software needs on vague conspiracy theories.  It is however FACT that there are 'anti spyware' programs that are spyware in themselves, and if someones been foolish enough to get spyware on their computer in the first place, I think a little paranoia about downloading programs from then on might be a good thing 

No - seriously its an all encompasing suite of crap.  We're required to remove it from every computer we process at my place of work.  There are better free alternatives.

Norton is quite possibly the worst, most useless, complete utter crap peice of software I have ever encountered.  It should be burnt wherever encountered. It is spawn of evil.

Considering the fact that unix and linux servers dominate gov and college campus's and servers, it is actually the OS that is attempted to be brute force hacked more than any other.

Thats a bit of a different situation- you have clearly competent (I'd hope!) admins looking after the computers and the software.  The 'noob' users arent responsible for setting up and maintaining the computers themselves.  So you can easily put them in a sandbox and not let them touch anything important, like (Im guessing- Im not a windows system admin) you can do on windows. (I do know you can deny alot of permissions on windows, but as I said, I'm not an admin).

Of course once MS releases Vista and forces people to upgrade (down the road when they stop selling and support for XP) you will really be in trouble as from what I've heard you will have less control of your machine and they will have more intrusive powers over what you can do with it. I am simplifying, of course, but take a look on the web beyond the windows hype and you may be disturbed.

OMG WINDOWS ARE SPYWAREZ THEY WILL FORCE YOU TO UPGRADEZ THEN THEY SPY ON YOU!!!! KEKEKE LOZ!!!111oneone.

I think the best defence to this is, ironically, windows supposed 'insecurity'- In reply to the numerous conspiracy theories, Microsoft has said basically "Dont you think, that if we had some sort of backdoor in our program for a non-published reason (read: CIA or FBI access, etc), then someone would find out about it?  It would be impossible to hide".  You dont trust microsoft to keep a secure system, yet you think they could expertly hide something liek a system spyer or backdoor on there without anyone finding out about it? If it was hardcoded, and a hacker found it, think of the vulnerabilities...  It might kind of seem possible to you, but if you're the head of a Multi billion dollar software development company with everything to lose (and tens of thousands of employees to silence, as well), I dont think you're going to be doing that.  Nearly everything about how the windows  O/S is uncovered by hackers, so how would they hide something this big?? (That, not to mention, could easily be found out via a simple snoop on your network traffic).

So, if we depart imagination conspiracy land and venture back into reality, you will see Mircrosoft windows is an O/S that, while not being perfect, caters to the needs of the general population of computing users, and does that better than anybody else.  Thats why they're so successful.

[Uyaem]

Heh ramlambmoo, can I please print out flyers with your posting on them? I couldn't agree more, on every part of it.
The constant need of pure linux users trying to convince all the other people of its greatness is just as disgusting as the one of the macintosh disciples. In the end, you use what you like best. And what do you like best? The thing that best suits your needs.
I'd love to use linux more myself (the prices of linux software are just unbeatable ), but the usability still rather is "meh!". It has improved a lot over the past 7 years (I remember my first linux install back then vividly), but still has a long way to go. For me, usability is most important. Having studied and graduated computer sciences, I'm certainly not a computer illiterate. I can keep a linux box running, but I'm only willing to go through the troubles for experimental purposes.

The great variety of alternative programs and desktop actually hinders linux in some way (different look and more importantly feel if many applications), so I can't really let that count as a pure "pro"-argument.

So, if we depart imagination conspiracy land and venture back into reality, you will see Mircrosoft windows is an O/S that, while not being perfect, caters to the needs of the general population of computing users, and does that better than anybody else.  Thats why they're so successful.

That, in the end, is the bottom line.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

This is the best spyware trojan adware remover I have found for windows

It is not automated, meaning you have to remove items from your registry manually but it gets them ALL, including those spybot misses, oh and it is free.

http://www.download.com/Bazooka-Adware-and-Spyware-Scanner/3000-8022-10247782.html

I second the endorsement of firefox.

[bilbous]

I'd love to use linux more myself (the prices of linux software are just unbeatable ), but the usability still rather is "meh!". It has improved a lot over the past 7 years (I remember my first linux install back then vividly), but still has a long way to go. For me, usability is most important. Having studied and graduated computer sciences, I'm certainly not a computer illiterate. I can keep a linux box running, but I'm only willing to go through the troubles for experimental purposes.

I really suppose it depends on what you need to do with your computer. I find Linux suits nearly every purpose I have for a computer. It is a little light on games. I have no real need for a word processor; neither, I think, do most people, however their expectations have been trained to require one. How did the business world get along before there were computers and only manual typewriters or before that? Why is it that I have to use a Microsoft proprietary format to send someone a resume?

As far as keeping a Linux box running goes for the most part there is no troubles. It is true that there is not optimal support for all possible equipment but it is getting better, part of the reason for that is the unfair business practices of the Beast of Redmond.

So, if we depart imagination conspiracy land and venture back into reality, you will see Mircrosoft windows is an O/S that, while not being perfect, caters to dictates the needs of the general population of computing users, and does that better than anybody else.  Thats why they're so successful.

Fixed that for you.

[ramlambmoo]

I have no real need for a word processor; neither, I think, do most people, however their expectations have been trained to require one. How did the business world get along before there were computers and only manual typewriters or before that? Why is it that I have to use a Microsoft proprietary format to send someone a resume?

Thats a ridiculous claim.  I take it you have never worked in a serious office environment before.  Businesses dont need word processors, but it sure as hell makes their life alot easier, and their business alot more productive.  My office would hardly be able to function without word processing software.  I've used MS Word about 6 or 7 times today to do complex functions (Mail merges on data extracted from Excel, Changed letter templates to suit what I needed to do, modified old documents for new projects, etc) that would have been absolute mind numbing hell on a typewriter.  You could perhaps claim that we dont need MS Word (Open office could do all these things) but to say Word Processors are of neglible value is complete insanity, and just wrong.
Before computers came along, business were alot less productive, and had ALOT more manual paperwork to do.

As far as keeping a Linux box running goes for the most part there is no troubles. It is true that there is not optimal support for all possible equipment but it is getting better, part of the reason for that is the unfair business practices of the Beast of Redmond.

Yeah well its not that hard to keep a windows box running either.  It's expected that computer these days should keep running for a certain period of time, I would say.

So, if we depart imagination conspiracy land and venture back into reality, you will see Mircrosoft windows is an O/S that, while not being perfect, dictates the needs of the general population of computing users, and does that better than anybody else.  Thats why they're so successful.

I disagree with your opinion.  It would be the greatest marketing ploy in history if microsoft, as you seem to be claiming, invented this entire new market for goods that nobody really needed and then proceeded to sell Billions upon Billions of dollars of them, and were so successful at it that multiple other companies starting doing the same.  Billions of dollars of products that dont cater to the needs of the general population and businesses over 20 years?  And all this time these millions of businesses never discovered that these products are not what they actually wanted? Dont you think if it was not what they wanted (or was not the best solution for what they wanted) then they might, oh, I dunno, not buy them?

Again, once we get out of conspiracy land and into reality, we see that Microsoft products do actually cater to a freakin huge and real market of people who, strangely enough, know what they want, and see that microsoft (better than anyone else) delivers it.  These people who have built up businesses arent quite as naive when it comes to choosing products as you like to think they are.

[bilbous]

I have no real need for a word processor; neither, I think, do most people, however their expectations have been trained to require one. How did the business world get along before there were computers and only manual typewriters or before that? Why is it that I have to use a Microsoft proprietary format to send someone a resume?

Thats a ridiculous claim.

Not really. It should perhaps have been separated from the bit about the business world which is a bit of a red herring. Most people don't work in a serious business environment where pushing paper is the raison d'etre. I certainly don't need it for personal communication, plain text is fine for my purposes. Sending out the same Christmas letter to your address book is kind of impersonal don't you think? These things are little better than spam to me.

I've used MS Word about 6 or 7 times today to do complex functions (Mail merges on data extracted from Excel, Changed letter templates to suit what I needed to do, modified old documents for new projects, etc) that would have been absolute mind numbing hell on a typewriter.

Ohh Madlibs^TM, form letters. Are you disrespecting your Grandmothers life? or your Great-Great-Grandfathers? Just where did all those secretaries go?  Are they working at Walmart or McDonalds now? Surely that is a step up for society.

I disagree with your opinion.  It would be the greatest marketing ploy in history if microsoft, as you seem to be claiming, invented this entire new market for goods that nobody really needed and then proceeded to sell Billions upon Billions of dollars of them, and were so successful at it that multiple other companies starting doing the same.  Billions of dollars of products that dont cater to the needs of the general population and businesses over 20 years?  And all this time these millions of businesses never discovered that these products are not what they actually wanted? Dont you think if it was not what they wanted (or was not the best solution for what they wanted) then they might, oh, I dunno, not buy them?

I think the greatest marketing ploy in history came from Debeers who convinced  generations of women that diamonds were valuable. They are not. They are about as common as amethyst. The only reason they are expensive is that Debeers stockpiles (picks number out of hat) 90% and only lets a trickle go to market. Good Monopoly tactics. Speaking of monopoly tactics ... low and behold, Microsoft is a convicted monopolist too. It is not too hard to dominate an industry if you shrewdly take advantage of others shortsightedness some of the time and cheat the rest. I guess that is the New American Dream, the one for the elite not the masses. They can keep the old saw about hard work paying off in the end.

After all "DOS ain't done till Lotus won't run." Cling to your illusions, just don't try to sell them to me.

[ramlambmoo]

Not really. It should perhaps have been separated from the bit about the business world which is a bit of a red herring. Most people don't work in a serious business environment where pushing paper is the raison d'etre. I certainly don't need it for personal communication, plain text is fine for my purposes. Sending out the same Christmas letter to your address book is kind of impersonal don't you think? These things are little better than spam to me.

Well speak for yourself, not for most people.  I certaintly have no need for a word processor for home use (notepad is fine, thanks), apart from typing up the occasional resume.  But its dictated by your needs.  Once you get a job in the business world you'll find word completly invaluable.  And if I were to get a job that required me to take work home, then I would certaintly get word.

Ohh MadlibsTM, form letters. Are you disrespecting your Grandmothers life? or your Great-Great-Grandfathers? Just where did all those secretaries go?  Are they working at Walmart or McDonalds now? Surely that is a step up for society.

Wow, so now linux is not only a better operating system, but its 'better for society'?  Or are you arguing against the effect of computers in general on our society?  Either way your point is completly irrelivant and off the topic.
Having these tools increases productivity.  That is what I'm saying.  Whether that is good for society or not is a compeletly different issue, and shouldn't be brought into such a discussion.  You're just going off on tangents.

I think the greatest marketing ploy in history came from Debeers who convinced  generations of women that diamonds were valuable. They are not. They are about as common as amethyst. The only reason they are expensive is that Debeers stockpiles (picks number out of hat) 90% and only lets a trickle go to market. Good Monopoly tactics.

Traditionally included in the cardinal, or most valuable, gemstones (along with diamond, sapphire, ruby and emerald), amethyst has lost much of its value due to the discovery of extensive deposits in locations such as Brazil.

They [Diamonds] have been treasured as gemstones since their use as religious icons in India at least 2,500 years ago—and usage in drill bits and engraving tools also dates to early human history.

I think you're wrong, and that you've over simplified the situation.  But diamonds have nothing to do with the situation so I wont get drawn into a discussion on them.

Speaking of monopoly tactics ... low and behold, Microsoft is a convicted monopolist too. It is not too hard to dominate an industry if you shrewdly take advantage of others shortsightedness some of the time and cheat the rest. I guess that is the New American Dream, the one for the elite not the masses. They can keep the old saw about hard work paying off in the end.

Im not going to argue against conspiracy theories.

"Linux is better because Technology is bad for Society; Linux is better because the world was better in the old days and we shouldnt disrespect their way of life; Linux is better because De Beers has an unfair monopoly on the Diamond Trade; Linux is better because people dont actually need Word Processors they just think they do; Linux is a better O/S because Microsoft is unethical; Linux is better because these new fangled people aren't respecting the old sayings about hard work".

My only reply: Windows is successful because it provides a product which improves productivity for a large number of people, and it does that better than any alternative.

[bilbous]

Do you know what the main difference between DOS 6.0, 6.1 and 6.2 was? I'll tell you anyway. DOS 6.0 came with this nfty new idea, drive compression. Only problem was Microsoft didn't write it, didn't own it and didn't pay for it. DOS 6.1 was essentially the same product without the disk compression as the owners of that software had received judicial relief ( an injunction preventing MS from distributing it. DOS 6.2 was again essentially the same but now MS had financially crippled through legal costs the other company to such a point that there was a settlement and MS got their license.

Did you know that MS has been backing SCO through a third party in their futile lawsuit against I suppose it is Novell now for their baseless claims that the Linux kernel contains SCO proprietary code. Sco has not offered one shred of proof and would have gone under long since if not for MS trying to protect their monopoly.

Open Source software IS better for society but if all you want is a security blanket be my guest and keep propping up the Monopolists. I am sure they will happily take your money while they take away your privacy and rights.

[ramlambmoo]

Do you know what the main difference between DOS 6.0, 6.1 and 6.2 was? I'll tell you anyway. DOS 6.0 came with this nfty new idea, drive compression. Only problem was Microsoft didn't write it, didn't own it and didn't pay for it. DOS 6.1 was essentially the same product without the disk compression as the owners of that software had received judicial relief ( an injunction preventing MS from distributing it. DOS 6.2 was again essentially the same but now MS had financially crippled through legal costs the other company to such a point that there was a settlement and MS got their license.

Thats great.  That has nothing to do with the topic.

Did you know that MS has been backing SCO through a third party in their futile lawsuit against I suppose it is Novell now for their baseless claims that the Linux kernel contains SCO proprietary code. Sco has not offered one shred of proof and would have gone under long since if not for MS trying to protect their monopoly.

SCO was/is funded by The Canopy Group which is an investment firm founded by Ray Noorda. [Wikipedia].  If you have any actual evidence of microsoft involvement in that, feel free to bring it forward.  If not stop making baseless claims.

Open Source software IS better for society but if all you want is a security blanket be my guest and keep propping up the Monopolists. I am sure they will happily take your money while they take away your privacy and rights.

All I want is an operating system that works and is easy for ordinary users to use.  And windows does that better than linux.  If all you want is some grand conspiracy theory run by the greedy, evil capaitalists then theorise away, but do yourself a favor dont try and convince me of your ridiculous claims.  Better still, try paying a visit to the real world and see how things actually work in reality.

[bilbous]

It's funny that, I never once mentioned conspiracies.
BTW here is that link you asked for:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2006100801442692
As far as it being of topic ... well topics change as threads unfold. If you would like we could move the conversation elsewhere.

[ramlambmoo]

It's funny that, I never once mentioned conspiracies.

Of course you didnt, conspiracy theorists dont like to think of their version of things as being far flung conspiracies.  'Conspiracy' has negative connotations if you're presenting a point of view, so why then would you use it?  But I stand by my comment.

BTW here is that link you asked for:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2006100801442692

From that Page:

Mr. Goldfarb testifies that Richard Emerson, a Microsoft senior vice president, approached him "sometime in 2003" about investing in SCO. Mr. Emerson, who is no longer with Microsoft, "stated that Microsoft wished to promote SCO and its pending lawsuit against IBM and the Linux operating system. But Microsoft did not want to be seen as attacking IBM or Linux," Mr. Goldfarb testified.

That "Microsoft wished to promote SCO".  Wished to Promote SCO, not did.  What company wouldnt "Wish to" promote a company thats conducting litigation against it's rival?  Theres no hard evidence there that Microsoft actually did anything and in fact the article mentions that SCO stock was sold when they realised Microsoft would not actually do anything of the sort:

But the kicker was he began to realize that Microsoft, whose senior VP of corporate development and strategy had promised that Microsoft would in some way guarantee the SCO investment, started showing signs it might not do that after all.

So, theres no actual proof of anything there.
The article you gave actually describes the whole incident as a "crazy allegation".

As far as it being of topic ... well topics change as threads unfold. If you would like we could move the conversation elsewhere.

The whole O/S discussion was already off topic, and then you further bring in unrelated incidents that have nothing to do with even that discussion.  If you just keep going off on tangents then a discussion will never get anywhere.  Unless you'd like to explain how DOS versions 6.0-6.2 and the De Beers Diamond trade specifically relate to the issue I was discussing, I'd prefer them not to be mentioned, and at a minimum, I'm not going to discuss them.  Discussions can move off topic, but only when multiple people agree to discuss that topic instead.

[bilbous]

Whatever you like. Tell me then exactly what is it I am try to say the conspiracy is? Am I accusing Microsoft of unsavory business practices of which they are innocent? By labelling anything someone says against Microsoft as being some sort of conspiracy nonsense you are framing the debate falsely.  I think you must be part of the pro-Microsoft conspiracy fringe, "they never did anything wrong, they just want to serve society and money means nothing to them." How do you like them apples?
 

[zanzibar]

So the conspiracy theory is just a crazy allegation?