Author Topic: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista  (Read 2443 times)

bilbous

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A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« on: October 19, 2006, 06:48:13 pm »
I just ran across this link http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2006/10/19/forbidding_vistas_windows_licensing_disserves_the_user.html
today (saw it on boingboing.net) and thought it might be timely due to the "fine" discussion I recently participated in on another thread. I hope someone finds it interesting.

It is kind of amazing what kind of stuff you can learn just by following a few rss feeds.

LARAGORN

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2006, 07:16:13 pm »
Bill is just letting us know that we have no rights, and that he can f*$&% with us anytime he likes.

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peeg

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2006, 08:22:13 pm »
Damn, am I happy not to depend on Microsoft's software anymore!
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zanzibar

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2006, 08:24:10 pm »
Your posts are way too Onenet.  Let it die, let it die.

(Their end user agreements are designed to prevent piracy.  It's actually not that big of a deal.)
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Croconil

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2006, 08:48:41 pm »
Meh, wernt planning on getting that heap of rubbish any way.

Kiirani

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2006, 08:54:57 pm »
What? No "By purchasing this software you are agreeing that Microsoft (c,tm,etc) and any affiliated companies own your immortal soul" ?

ramlambmoo

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2006, 04:58:44 am »
The price you pay for quality software is ridiculous licenses.  These clauses in EULA's are extremely strict so to prevent any loopholes in them from being exploited.  Basically, software companies say "You have no rights at all technically", but choose to ignore that if you're not doing anything really bad.  Hence things like limiting "workarounds"- this is put in to prevent people, for example, disabiling verification or whatever, but could be interpreted more widely if they wanted.  Thats an unfortunate necessity for software companies these days, due to the actions of people who think it's ok to just download any software (or media) they want regardless of copyright, etc.

Of course, people say "OMG, EVILZ" and therefore justify pirating the software and so on, thus continuing the need for ridiculous license statements.

If you dont like it, dont buy it.  Let others make their own decisions.

Phinehas

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2006, 05:19:06 am »
Well spoken Ram, well spoken.

Induane

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2006, 05:34:59 am »
Quote
(Their end user agreements are designed to prevent piracy.  It's actually not that big of a deal.)

What is a big deal is that if I do shell out $400 dollars and I install it on my pc, then my mobo burns out. No biggie I replace it.  Later on what happens if I want to upgrade the motherboard? XP already freaks out if you change 3 pieces of hardware at the same time.  I hate to see what vista will do - no wait I already did since I've got the beta. The license I have is supposed to work for 10 PC's.  I changed the NETWORK card and it told me I was running a pirated copy.  A PIRATED COPY OF BETA SOFTWARE??? WEIRD>


Actually if it wasn't for all the TCPA stuff in Vista I'd say its a good release.  Its finally catching up with OSX and shaping up to be a good OS. 

And Ram is right - the eulas themselves are designed to close loopholes, but the sotware itself is also designed to not work if you tranfer it.  I'm fine with that.  The policy should be if I uninstall vista from machind A then I can install it on machine B.  Unfortunately despite the fact that I own a license - its impossible at the software level, and illegal at the EULA level.  This doesn't make sense for any kind of thing other than requiring people to pirate it in order to move it to a new machine.  Few people want to pay again just to move it.

Kiirani

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2006, 05:40:04 am »
I wouldn't call windows "quality software" myself, but then, I've not tried vista, so perhaps it's improved since xp. And it's best that I don't start another of these OS wars. I understand already the niche that windows fills, but the fact that it serves the useability need of the majority of the population does not mean it's good quality, especially when compared to some other products around. *Shrug*

Open source forever! For those willing to get it working XD

ramlambmoo

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2006, 05:41:43 am »
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And Ram is right - the eulas themselves are designed to close loopholes, but the sotware itself is also designed to not work if you tranfer it.  I'm fine with that.  The policy should be if I uninstall vista from machind A then I can install it on machine B.  Unfortunately despite the fact that I own a license - its impossible at the software level, and illegal at the EULA level.  This doesn't make sense for any kind of thing other than requiring people to pirate it in order to move it to a new machine.  Few people want to pay again just to move it.

Thats what I dont get- why Didnt Microsoft simply say "You cant have more than one computer connecting to the internet / receiving virus updates from our servers with the same license key"? That would solve the problem entirely, and you would even be able to trasnfer your license if you wanted to another computer, as long as you didnt want to use yours anymore (with vista).  Their solution is more complicated than I think is necessary.

bilbous

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2006, 07:16:25 am »

If you dont like it, dont buy it.  Let others make their own decisions.

Don't you think it is valuable to read a range of opinions before making a decision?

I freely admit I have a bias against Microsoft. If someone wants to post a link to a pro-Vista article in this thread I won't complain. It would help if it came from a source independent of Microsoft with some sort of professional standing. I don't know much about the author of the link I posted but I have come to trust the publishers of boingboing to link items of interest. They certainly have their own perspective, who doesn't?


I have just one final question. Do pirates pay attention to eulas or are they really designed to restrict the rights of honest people?

ramlambmoo

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2006, 07:44:57 am »
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Don't you think it is valuable to read a range of opinions before making a decision?

Yes, of course it is.  And my opinion is, if you don’t like it, then don’t buy it.  Alot of software users feel the need to evangelise the product they use and think that everyone has the same needs as them.  Thats why I say everyone should make up their own mind.

Quote
I have just one final question. Do pirates pay attention to eulas or are they really designed to restrict the rights of honest people?

It's not about pirates "paying attention" to EULAs, its about Microsoft (and software companies in general) having the legal right to pursue pirates when necessary.  Pirates care about EULAs when it they're in court and it's going to mean a hefty fine and years in Jail for them.

I dont see the motivation behind restricting the rights of honest people on purpose, just for the sake of it.  I dont know how that's going to benefit your company, get you sales, or promote your product.  Theres no sane reason to do it on its own- it's done to stop piracy and viruses.  I'm not going to sell a car and put in the EULA "You must wear a pink hat while driving my car" just for the sake of it to piss people off.  Especially not when it's a multi billion dollar company with alot riding on their next product's release.

bilbous

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2006, 08:23:49 am »
As far as I know EULAs have never been tested in court and there is considerable support for the opinion that they would not hold up in any case. It is a very grey area. For the most part EULAs are only written for software and were originated for the purpose of attempting to avoid liability for the software.

I hope you would not buy a car with a license agreement as it would mean that you do not own the car but rather own the privilege of driving the car which could be revoked at the true owners whim. In a sense you have this with the Dept. of Motor Vehicles but it  attaches to the license plate which is then physically attached to the car.

As time has gone by software producers have started to put more and more things into their license and to reduce the things you are allowed to do with it. Almost all software comes with a license agreement of some sort. The main difference is what you are permitted to do with that software.

It is kind of a shame that the only time you can own a piece of software is if you wrote it yourself or paid someone to write it for you and made such provision in the contract. The rest of the time you own, at best, the media that the software came on and a license to use the software on the media.

Please forgive the disorganized format of my post, I am not the most ordered of thinkers and I write as I think.

ramlambmoo

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2006, 08:43:51 am »
Quote
As far as I know EULAs have never been tested in court and there is considerable support for the opinion that they would not hold up in any case. It is a very grey area. For the most part EULAs are only written for software and were originated for the purpose of attempting to avoid liability for the software.

Again, I'm going to have to ask if you have any documentation to back this up- are there any legal precidents for them? I'm not convinced that they are illegeal, or invalid, but even if they are grey, you have to admit, from a Software companies point of view, its really better than nothing.  If you've got a huge investment in software you're going to do what you can to protect it.  Regardless of their original purpose, they are now also used to impose certain restrictions to protect their rights.

Quote
I hope you would not buy a car with a license agreement as it would mean that you do not own the car but rather own the privilege of driving the car which could be revoked at the true owners whim. In a sense you have this with the Dept. of Motor Vehicles but it  attaches to the license plate which is then physically attached to the car.

Fair point, that wasnt a great analogy (perhaps renting a car would be better- those have terms of service, Im pretty sure).  Or think of it as, you can do whatever you want with a piece of hardware you purchase, but the warranty also has terms of service which you must abide with for a warranty to be valid.
My real point was, companies dont impose restrictions without there being a reason for doing it.  They dont generally like annoying customers; its just plain illogial.  So if you apply Occam's Razor and say, are they protecting their rights or pissing off customers for the sake of it... you tell me.

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As time has gone by software producers have started to put more and more things into their license and to reduce the things you are allowed to do with it. Almost all software comes with a license agreement of some sort. The main difference is what you are permitted to do with that software.

Yes, yes they have.  Any why are they doing that?  Is it because they like restricting people and annoying them, or because of people pirating software and making viruses to target their programs?  You tell me.

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It is kind of a shame that the only time you can own a piece of software is if you wrote it yourself or paid someone to write it for you and made such provision in the contract. The rest of the time you own, at best, the media that the software came on and a license to use the software on the media.

Thats the basic idea of copyright.  If you 'own' a piece of software, that means you have the right to do whatever you want with it.  If I want to sell you a bit of software, but you have the right to sell it to anyone else, then suddenly, I cant sell it to bob, either because he can get it cheaper or for free off you.  So basically (whether you realise it or not) you want the abolishment of all sale of software.  Yeah, its a shame, but thats life.  Thats how it works.  Theres no way to make everyone own everything they ever wanted.  Its a shame that life isnt fair, but its something we have to deal with.

Its in fact, the same with any media as well: You dont 'own' a picture, you buy the right to look at it. (Technically speaking: you own the paper it's printed on, but you dont own that image and you dont own the right to make copies of it, to sell copies of it, to change it etc.  Just like you dont own the right to copy software, to sell copies, to change it).  If you have some revolutionary new way the entire world can function without copyright I'd like to hear it. Seriously.