Author Topic: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista  (Read 2438 times)

zanzibar

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2006, 08:49:05 am »
I hope you would not buy a car with a license agreement as it would mean that you do not own the car but rather own the privilege of driving the car which could be revoked at the true owners whim. In a sense you have this with the Dept. of Motor Vehicles but it  attaches to the license plate which is then physically attached to the car.


You're missing one huge point though:  We aren't talking about something physical.  We're talking about intellectual property.  A car requires materials.  Programming is not material - it's information.  You can't photocopy a car to save money.  You can, however, copy CDs with relative ease.



« Last Edit: October 20, 2006, 08:57:22 am by zanzibar »
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ramlambmoo

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2006, 08:59:29 am »
Quote
You're missing one huge point though:  We aren't talking about something physical.  We're talking about intellectual property.  A car requires materials.  Programming is not material - it's information.  You can't photocopy a car to save money.  You can, however, copy CDs with relative ease.

Yes, that was my fault for the bad analogy.  But my analogy was more about imposing harsh restrictions on buyers of your product in general.  And you can do that on physical items by saying that the warranty is void if you do certain things, for example.

bilbous

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2006, 11:13:32 am »
Ok Let me try to address some points about the topic without resorting to extensive quotes. I hope you won't mind if I truncate nicks to save typing fell free to do the same to mine.

Ram asked for documentation about the legal status of EULAs. I do not know of any case anywhere in the world where they have been tested. This is a subject that I have followed for some months now and the general consensus of what I have read is as I suggested. This does not mean there are not differing opinions or that it is impossible there are one or more cases I haven't heard about. I am not an expert but I am interested. If you find something seemingly credible that contradicts what I have said I would look at it and make my own opinion as to its value.

About your (Ram) point about businesses reasons for restricting user rights. I believe that in the case of a for profit company with an effective monopoly the reason is always to maximise profit. Note the use of the term effective, I am not talking about an ideal perfect monopoly but the kind that Microsoft has been convicted by several courts of possessing. That gives Microsoft considerable leeway as to how they treat their customers. When the customers are led to believe they have no viable options they can be squeezed for more money and terms can be made that much more unfair.

On to your point about selling software. I can, right now, sell you a copy of GNU/Linux perfectly legally. I don't own it but I could make a copy of a free version that I have downloaded and sell it to you. Pretty much the only thing I would be required to do is to include all the source code to the software that I sell you. This is the essence of the General Public License version 2 as I understand it. I am not a lawyer so don't take this as legal advice. I am sure there is a little more to it. For more information try this link: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html . Also note that it would not be exactly the same as Red Hat, Debian or some other distribution as a full distribution comes with software with various licenses as well as proprietary look and feel additions. The distributions make their money by selling packages with their own additions and enhancements, configuration scripts and desktop themes etc. and by selling technical support and training contracts. Some are supported by large companies such as SUSE which is owned by Novell. Others such as RedHat are supported by a large IPO. I believe it floated at around $4 billion U.S. but that number might be somewhat off. Still others accept donations, these tend to be smaller niche distributions, Knoppix comes to mind but again I might be mistaken.
Of course I would rather just give you a copy or tell you where you could download it for free.

About "media," if you sell me a picture on a piece of paper I cannot mechanically reproduce it and sell copies. I can add it to a collage or other artwork and sell the result. I can do just about anything I want with that piece of paper with your picture on it except distribute copies of it. This is my understanding of the "principle of First Sale." Search on that term if you want a better explaination. I don't have time.  If I am an artist and it is a painting I can reproduce it in my own work as long as I don't represent it as the original. I don't even need to own it to do that. There are other considerations that may come into play that don't have to do with copyright. An example of this is I believe the Louvre in Paris has registered an International Trademark on the Mona Lisa. It is not uncommon for there to be special exceptions to any generality.


Now Zan, You are right and at the same time you are not, I think. Let me explain. Yes a program is information and that information that is protected is the specific source code and its compiled expression. This is similar to an automobiles blueprint and its factory produced expression the vehicle itself. Does that make sense? Now lets go a bit further. If I have a blueprint can I make a replacement part for the car you sold me? I think so With enough tools and expertise I can follow your blueprint and make myself a copy of your car. It would likely not be an exact duplicate as modifications would crop up due to differing production methods. Could I sell it under your brand name? No, of course not. Could I sell it at all? Privately, probably yes, commercially probably not.
Now if I were to recreate it without your help I could sell sell it commercially.

Well It is 5 am and I'm losing track of what I am trying to say. Perhaps I'll try to clean this up tomorrow. I may have to substantially modify this last part  I think most of the post will stand though. Just don't want to lose the last two hours of typing. If anyone else can see what I am trying to say feel free to say it .
 

*Edit1: just a quick note about EULAs. Actually I have heard about one particular EULA that has been tested in various courts and that is the GPL. It is a horse of a different color to the EULAs coming from Microsoft and the like. It is intended to garuntee rights moreso that to restrict them. There is currently some controversy in the OSS community due to the current attempt to update the GPL but that is another topic altogether.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2006, 07:26:44 pm by bilbous »

zanzibar

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2006, 11:54:31 am »
Modifications to the software include modifications that allow people to pirate the software.  That's probably why.
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bilbous

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2006, 07:30:02 pm »
Could you elaborate? I am a little confused about your comment, Zan.

zanzibar

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2006, 07:42:40 pm »
Seems simple enough to me.
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neko kyouran

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2006, 07:54:42 pm »
take as example, changing the main exe of a program, rewriting it, so that it doesn't need to run with a cd in the drive, then making an iso file of that, and putting it on a torrent site.

Kiirani

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2006, 08:04:45 pm »
take as example, changing the main exe of a program, rewriting it, so that it doesn't need to run with a cd in the drive, then making an iso file of that, and putting it on a torrent site.

Call me stupid, but don't you need the source of the app in order to rewrite it?

ramlambmoo

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2006, 05:08:13 am »
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Call me stupid, but don't you need the source of the app in order to rewrite it?

Technically no, you can change the machine code, or change it in assembler.

How do you think people write "no cd cracks" for programs?  Im pretty sure theres a way to do it.  For example, alot of programs dont actually use the data on the cd- they just check whether it's there (so the person has to physically have the cd).  So if you, for example, intercept the call to the dll that checks for the cd and return "True" or something.  I dont know, Im not exactly an expert, but its possible.
Or look at the code in assembler and change all the lines dealing with searching for the cd to null commands, so it doesnt check.

bilbous

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2006, 08:37:46 am »
Looks like you are going to make me do some homework you nasty Bagginsesses.

Let us see if we can agree on any terms.

Pirate: a person who has a commercial interest in trading in intellectual property to which they have no rights.  Is that fair or would you consider it to be anyone who provides intellectual property to which they have no rights regardless of whether they profit?
Remember that Copyright laws differ according to jurisdiction.

Intellectual Property Broker: (IPB) A company or group whose business involves dealing in intellectual property from more than one source. This would include Microsoft because they generate much of their own I.P. but they also acquire it by purchasing companies that hold I.P. It would also include the RIAA and MPAA because they are trade associations of companies that buy and sell I.P. in the form of music and movies respectively. It would include many large companies such as drug manufacturers as well as the international counterparts to the RIAA and MPAA. It would not include any company that only traffics in their own I.P. such as selling only products that they have developed or whose I.P. is already in the public domain.

Intellectual Property Rightsholder: (IPR) This is someone such as an artist or programmer whose interest is in producing the I.P. that the I.P. Broker trades. This person might trade in I.P. for the purpose of developing new I.P. from the old but is not in the business of buying and selling of I.P. generally.

Are these definitions of use and are there others I should consider?


Edit
I'm not sure how interested I am in going on about this as it seems like a lot of typing about something I am no expert in.  I think there are some misconceptions being bandied about and I don't think they are all mine. Maybe I'll have more time this weekend.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 09:00:41 am by bilbous »

zanzibar

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2006, 02:37:05 am »
I'm not sure how interested I am in going on about this as it seems like a lot of typing about something I am no expert in.

You're an expert on your own statements though.
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bilbous

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2006, 04:48:39 am »
Not really, I tend to forget them even while I am saying them, hadn't you noticed?

Datruth

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2006, 02:17:56 am »
Big business has too much power. So much that the consumer is currently their slaves. We are at the point where there is near nothing we can do about it.

I will admit right now that i am a pirate and have been for a number of years.

Why do i do it? I feel that if someone buys a product and wants to share it with the world, he has every right to.

Right now that's not the case, Dvd's have software protection that doesn't allow the making of perfect copies, EVEN IF YOU OWN IT AND WANT TO LEGITAMETLY BACK IT UP!

This is bogus. Especially when the Dvd company charges soo much for a single disc and plastic.

What is the average rate of dvd? I'd say from 15-20 dollars each.
How much do the companies pay to make that dvd and that plastic, i'd say about 2 dollars each.
They make too much profit and they don't even say you own the dvd but just the right to view it.

Again it's bogus and it's unfair.

Corporate america lining it's pockets with the blood of hard working men and women of the middle class is wrong.

So you know what we decided to do?

Share, and we shared on a HUGE level. Was it easy?
No?

You know how hard it is to keep a torrent seeded with active seeders for 1 week, let alone 1 month.
It took alot of hard work to distribute DVD rips and Software and music.
We have the technology now where one person can share with thousands, sometimes millions.


My take on it is this, Pirating is the result of Corporate america overcharging their consumers. I feel there is nothing wrong with one person being able to share his digital items with many, regardless of how much the person looses in profit.

One day there will be a work around that will allow mass sharing and also give the artists some profit.

It's technology, it's progressing, and it's not going to be stopped.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Imaginge this, South Korea invents a machine that is 10 feet by 10 feet by 10 feet.
In this big metal box there is a Vertical divider, basically one empty space on one side, a wall, then another empty space on the other.
Now you insert whatever you want, food, materials, money, computers, and after 2 days, you get an exact copy.

Do you know what this means?
We could end hunger by using thousands of these machines to send food to millions of people around the world.
Free computers.
Free equipment.
Free everything.

What do you think would be done with this machine?

I think it would be banned and prohibited from EVERY country in the world. Why? Because profits would be lost from corporate america.

I see pirating in the same way. Pirating HELPS the artist, it gives him a wider fan base, allows the music to be distributed faster. Same with software, especially open source, where then you can take the software and improve it.

I think pirating is banned for the same purpose, it's a step forward for technology, and yet it's banned because it takes away corporate profits.

If you look at the bigger picture though it helps all people in general.

Just like that machine I mentioned before, It's able to clone ANYTHING, do you really think the U.S would allow it to exist?
Even if we had the technology now, wouldn't governments be doing everything possible to stop the creation of such a device?
Wouldn't this device help the world over? Stop hunber? Be the answer to all our dreams?


Sadly the cause of the Eulas and the overcharging is all from one source:

Corporate America and Big Business.

Pirating is the result of it and of our technological advancements.

There is a war going on right now and i stand with the consumer and the greater good for the greatest amount of people.

People will have to take sides soon and eventually the machine I mentioned will be made, it will be up to you to allow its creation or destroy it.

~~Datruth

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zanzibar

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2006, 06:47:08 am »
DVDs are not a necessity of life.  They are a luxury.

It depresses me that this is the battle you have chosen to fight when there are so many more important issues out there.
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neko kyouran

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Re: A link to a Lawyers perspective on Windows Vista
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2006, 11:06:14 am »
getting back to the original topic.....

http://slashdot.org/articles/06/11/02/2055216.shtml

Seems they realised one of thier mistakes.