Author Topic: Virtual economies attract real-world tax attention  (Read 1827 times)

Tarel

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Virtual economies attract real-world tax attention
« on: October 23, 2006, 09:55:00 am »
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2006-10-16T121700Z_01_N15306116_RTRUKOC_0_US-LIFE-SECONDLIFE-TAX.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2

By Adam Pasick

LONDON (Reuters) - Users of online worlds such as Second Life and World of Warcraft transact millions of dollars worth of virtual goods and services every day, and these virtual economies are beginning to draw the attention of real-world authorities.

"Right now we're at the preliminary stages of looking at the issue and what kind of public policy questions virtual economies raise -- taxes, barter exchanges, property and wealth," said Dan Miller, senior economist for the Joint Economic Committee of the U.S. Congress.

"You could argue that to a certain degree the law has fallen (behind) because you can have a virtual asset and virtual capital gains, but there's no mechanism by which you're taxed on this stuff," he told Reuters in a telephone interview.

The increasing size and public profile of virtual economies, the largest of which have millions of users and gross domestic products that rival those of small countries, have made them increasingly difficult for lawmakers and regulators to ignore.

Second Life, for example, was specifically designed by San Francisco-based Linden Lab to have a free-flowing market economy. Its internal currency, the Linden dollar, can be converted into U.S. dollars through an open currency exchange, making it effectively "real" money.

Inside Second Life, users can buy and sell virtual objects from T-shirts to helicopters, develop virtual real estate, or hire out services ranging from architecture to exotic dancing. Up to $500,000 in user-to-user transactions take place every day, and the Second Life economy is growing by 10 to 15 percent a month.

"Ownership, property rights, all that stuff needs to be decided. There's just too much money floating around," said game designer Sam Lewis, who trained as an economist and has worked on games such as Star Wars Galaxies. He is currently lead designer for an upcoming game from Cartoon Network.

"The tax laws don't know how to behave because these are virtual items: ones and zeros on a database we're allowing you to play in," he said.

Even if it is inevitable, Lewis is not exactly looking forward to having real-life tax collectors enter the virtual world.

"I'm a designer that thinks any sort of boundaries or rules actually give you an interesting challenge to overcome, but I don't particularly want the IRS coming in," he said.

The rapid emergence of virtual economies has outstripped current tax law in many areas, but there are some clear-cut guidelines that already apply. For example, people who cash out of virtual economies by converting their assets into real-world currencies are required to report their incomes to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service or the tax authority where they live in the real world.

It is less clear how to deal with income and capital gains that never leave the virtual economy, income and capital gains that in the real world would be subject to taxes.

"Let's say the IRS decides they want a valuation of your assets. We don't have a stock market where we can as of the 31st of December, these assets went up, these went down," Lewis said.

Miller, of the Joint Economic Committee, who became interested in the issue when he began exploring some of the virtual worlds in his free time, said he has an open mind about how real world tax authorities should interact with virtual economies.

"We are starting with a blank slate and going through the various dimensions of virtual economies, and seeing where they might intersect with public policy," he said. Miller hopes to have a rough draft of a report done by the end of the year.

But first, he has to educate some of his colleagues.

"I found that talking about this issue with some of the other economists on the committee, they are not really familiar with what a virtual economy is. The idea of Second Life or World of Warcraft or some of these other synthetic universes, they have trouble wrapping their head around it," he said.

However, there are probably some on Capitol Hill who won't require much explanation. "I can almost guarantee that there are some members of Congress spending time in Second Life or World of Warcraft," he said.

(For more coverage of Second Life, where Reuters is opening a virtual news bureau, go to http://secondlife.reuters.com)

© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 09:56:58 am by Tarel »
Greetings,

Tarel Barilele


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zanzibar

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Re: Virtual economies attract real-world tax attention
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2006, 10:16:43 am »
A mailbox in Bermuda means that you don't have to pay income tax at all, but they're worried about people buying imaginary items with imaginary capital?
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neko kyouran

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Re: Virtual economies attract real-world tax attention
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2006, 10:56:46 am »
The way it was explained to me,

"they can do that, but of course you can't tax a virtual asset until it becomes real world gain and since WoW doesn't allow that, then I will never be taxed........Second Life on the other hand should be taxed, as it deals with real world money.  What they proposed was taxing real world transactions with virtual communities...and i agree with that"



zanzibar

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Re: Virtual economies attract real-world tax attention
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2006, 05:14:50 pm »
The way it was explained to me,

"they can do that, but of course you can't tax a virtual asset until it becomes real world gain and since WoW doesn't allow that, then I will never be taxed........Second Life on the other hand should be taxed, as it deals with real world money.  What they proposed was taxing real world transactions with virtual communities...and i agree with that"







I agree, but I bet it won't go down like that.
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ThomPhoenix

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Re: Virtual economies attract real-world tax attention
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2006, 05:20:05 pm »
Yup, this will not ever apply to other MMO's than Second Life. In Second Life you can buy everything with real life money, but you can also sell everything you own for real life money. You're making money out of something, so technically you're "having a job" and so you would need to pay income tax. I don't see a problem with this, normal MMO's will never be taxed.
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bilbous

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Re: Virtual economies attract real-world tax attention
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2006, 06:33:31 pm »
buy gold
More gold
If you can buy it you can sell it. If it can be bought and sold it can be taxed.
It doesn't matter if the proceeds are gained illegally it is still taxable income.

One thing I'm wondering though is will the government tax the game company on the amount of cash they "print" and what about all those "goods" they manufacture?

ThomPhoenix

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Re: Virtual economies attract real-world tax attention
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2006, 08:47:34 pm »
They won't, as those are virtual. But the very moment an item is transferred to 10$ it will be income taxed.
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Capprion

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Re: Virtual economies attract real-world tax attention
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2006, 09:04:27 pm »
gov. diggin deeper into the pot to take its share yet again.   
if this money went to something more then buying crab cakes for the fat overpaid lazy lying whelps of the worlds governments. then maybe it wouldnt be so bad.

everyone says EDUCATION ..we need more taxes for education...
and we already have more then the money we need generated from tax in the US to pay for education the teachers the buildings books and yada yada whatever . the problems with education is well simply put / kids dont want to be in school, they are hounded, hassled, and basicly looked at as infirior morons by the teachers and boards of education. they get up early and dont get out till around 3 in mostp laces and still have 4 hours of homework to do, and most things learned in school is non applicable to most jobs you will have anyway. when i was in the 9th grade they built a new school here, cost 2 million. new buildings dont make for better education.

the truth about it, most taxe $ go into stupid things.
the government here in the US has also been attacking people making money online alot latey. first with the gambling thing
and now with games and game items
i figure it should not be taxed really. i mean if i was to see you on the street and give you a 10$ bill    should they tax that ?
no. because its me giving it to you just cuz i could
same with online games paying cash its not like a job in any way, the items are virtual the game is nothing but a program. it makes me sick, one of these days they are gona start trying to tax everyone a dime for each dollar they give to somone at work to get a bottle of pop.  its almost like being double taxed..they get it from you, and from the company that gave you what you was buying

the tax we pay each day for everything. where is it going? nobody knows. and anyone who says they know exactly where the money is going is full of it.

the laws on tax are meant for real world things, not money passed to and from gamers on this net...the net dont even exist if you think about it.  every computer in the world shuts off..is the net still there? nope. and as much as tax rates increase and decrease im having trouble deciding if there really is any law one way or another.  did anyone even vote on this stuff?  wait nevermind yes the people in washington did and thats the only opinions that matter right? the american people have been screwed around so much that they dont even know whats good or bad for them anymore. SIT ( people sit ) BEG ( people beg )

thats my look on things anyway
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 10:23:16 pm by Capprion »

zanzibar

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Re: Virtual economies attract real-world tax attention
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2006, 10:28:05 pm »
buy gold
More gold
If you can buy it you can sell it. If it can be bought and sold it can be taxed.
It doesn't matter if the proceeds are gained illegally it is still taxable income.

One thing I'm wondering though is will the government tax the game company on the amount of cash they "print" and what about all those "goods" they manufacture?


Such things have no absolute value, therefore you cannot tax them except at the moments they are given an absolute value.  IE you can only tax them when they are exchanged for money.
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Goldir

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Re: Virtual economies attract real-world tax attention
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2006, 07:53:57 am »
Al Capone learned the whole "Even if it is illegal it can still be taxed" thing the hard way.  Didn't they get him for tax evasion for not reporting the income he earned from bootlegging?
"Citizens get the government they deserve.  If they want to be coddled and have everything handed to them and taken care of for them, they have no right to complain when all their individual rights and liberties are stripped away to make it happen"