November 7th Midterm Election

[bilbous]

That is a great joke there Zan, what with your current sig and all. They can't possibly be right if they disagree with you.
Oh and the problem is not with the fundamentalists, it is with polititians who cynically manipulate them.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=God+told+me+Bush&btnG=Search&meta=
Edit Feeble joke removed

[Monketh]

I'll bite.

The current wars are due mostly to religous fundmentalists.  It is easy to see why many seculars might think "Religion is bad."  After all, they only need point to Islamic & Christian Radicalism and their case is in point.
Mahmoud Ahmedinejad (sp?) and Bush are two examples of leaders that exhibit the inflexible stance of "knowing" that God is on their side (and therefore whatever I do is right), and as a result the brinkmanship they practice is a danger to global security.  You can talk to American conservatives and convince them to follow centrist/liberal courses; you just have to use their language.  Ask them questions (statements) to which they must answer "yes."  Then, use those statements to reach a conclusion with which they disagree.
Thus:
1.Iranian President is uber-religious.
2.a.Iran's nuclear program is mostly his fault.
2.b.Iran's nuclear program is dangerous to our national security.
3.a.Iran's president refuses to back down because he believes he is right.
3.b.He believes he is right because he believes God is on his side.
3.b.II.This is because he is uber-religious.
4.Therefore, uber-religion is dangerous to national security.

Or:
1.Marriage is a relationship between a man and woman blessed by God, right?
2.God is expressed through your religious institution.
3.The government is inherently a multi-theist instution (it is composed of people of differing ideologies.)
4.A religious insutution can only have one truth.
5.The government is not a religious institution.
6.So, how can it recognize God?
7.Since marriage is inherently religious, it should be in a religious institution, by something capable of recognizing religion.
8. see 5:The government is not a religious institution.
9.How can a person of a differing theism believe God has blessed your marriage if they do not believe as you do?
10.The government should not recognize marriage.  That would be sacreligious.

[I know these are flawed.  They're quick examples.]

[bilbous]

I am glad you realise they are flawed. I have just one question about your post. If you think George Bush is uber-religious then why does he allow his daughters to party hearty and not ship them off to a religious school to mend their ways? Could it be his religiousity is a cynical front?

[zanzibar]

That is a great joke there Zan, what with your current sig and all. They can't possibly be right if they disagree with you.
Oh and the problem is not with the fundamentalists, it is with polititians who cynically manipulate them.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=God+told+me+Bush&btnG=Search&meta=
Edit Feeble joke removed

Dude.  Get back under your bridge.


You and Monketh do make a good point though.  Often, conflits that seem to be religious in nature are actually economic in nature.

[bilbous]

Dude.  Get back under your bridge.

Buuuddy, there be goats up there good for the eating! You don't want me to go hungry do you?

[Monketh]

To an extent.  I would hardly believe that the current conflicts have any economic benefits other than to those directly or indirectly involved with the security industries.

[zanzibar]

To an extent.  I would hardly believe that the current conflicts have any economic benefits other than to those directly or indirectly involved with the security industries.

To take the current American war as an example, the US government is racking up a huge debt because of 1. taxcuts and 2. military spending.  At the same time, the people who are in office, as well as their friends and companies, are investing huge amounts of money into government grants.  This is a documented fact, it's all on public record.  They're putting the government into debt and then they're loaning the government their own money at a high rate of interest.

(The tax cuts themselves represent billions of dollars going back into the pockets of the rich.  Eliminating the death tax means that these multi billionaires and Paris Hiltons will hang on to their wealth for eternity.)

Then there's Haliburton and how they've been given so many contracts without any competition.  I've spoken to soldiers who have seen service in Iraq, they say that the food isn't very good despite all the money Haliburton has been given.  I wonder what they're doing with all that cash if they aren't spending it on the soldiers?  Keeping it, maybe?

Then there's the oil thing.  Of course, it's possible that the US government wants to control those oil fields simply because they don't want China or Europe to have their own source of oil.

[Datruth]

This has to do with the election though.

Is anyone here besides me actually voting?

If so, do you care to say how?

[bilbous]

I get to vote in a week or two but it is just a municiple election.

[Datruth]

I get to vote in a week or two but it is just a municiple election.

Governors seats, Senetors seats, and Representative Seats, are all on the line.

So we don't get to pick the president, we still get to help pick the legislative branch, and remember they make all the laws.

I see the midterm elections to be just as important as the the Presidential ones.

[bilbous]

Well hopefully you will throw the rascals out whoever they are. It looks from here like both sides are equally bad. I am Canadian so I have no say.

[zanzibar]

Well hopefully you will throw the rascals out whoever they are. It looks from here like both sides are equally bad. I am Canadian so I have no say.

Looks are decieving, especially when they're provided to you by the mainstream media.

[Datruth]

Well hopefully you will throw the rascals out whoever they are. It looks from here like both sides are equally bad. I am Canadian so I have no say.

Looks are decieving, especially when they're provided to you by the mainstream media.

So both sides arn't to blame? Is that what you're saying?

I personally think they are and i'm just going to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Wish me good luck

[bilbous]

"the rascals" refers to the ones who are there for self-serving purposes, that have meekly followed the party line and allowed Bush et al to gradually turn America into Amerika, i.e. took away your freedoms in the name of "the war on terror" and replaced them with increasing the police state mentality. Sadly it looks like the Democrat/Republican duality is merely the good cop/bad cop routine and the basic goal of both remains the same: lock up the perp, i.e. you. Unfortunately as goes America so goes the world so us outsiders can only hope you guys get your act together and resist the Military Industrial Complex.

Full Speech This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Good Luck, for all our sakes.

[Datruth]

I don't know if it's come to the point where we need a revolution or anything.

I think the problem is loss of morals and guidance which has gotten us to an increase in violence and greed.

Right now Big business rules all. If you can write a big check, you will get what you want done, no questions asked.

And look at those billion dollar weapons manufacturors, where are they gonna sell weapons now?

China is our number 1 trading partner and no matter what people say we love them. Russia collapssed and wouldn't be seen as a threat being that they  have lost soo much money and power.

The U.K is as strong as ever and will back us up to the ends of the world, Europe for the most part is stable and the instability that does exist there poses no real threat to America.

That left, The middle east, Africa, and North Korea to poke at. Their the only ones left with real instability that has an influence on America. With the whole Palestine Israel problem, Darfur and Possible Nukes at Iran and North Korea, the Weapons manufacturers could meet their quota's.

My long explanation about this is that I think we're currently all over those places now because of Weapon Manufactorers Greed, i don't think it has anything to do with justice or morality. Morally you can't Bomb Iraq, kill thousands of innocent women and children, and stain the ground with uranium for millions of years.

Yes, Greed has gotten us this far stretched and in this war.
Iraq reminds me of the Civil war.
Once it was finished and the North had won it took the South a long time to recover and the north quickly outpassed it in goods and exports.
The same goes with Iraq, we'll be in there fixing things for the next 10 years easy,probably longer, all because the weapons contractors wanted money and used their influence in congress to get the war they needed.

Now what does this have to do with voting?
I'm going to vote away the power of the weapons contractors and hopefully make them accountable to what they've done.

~~Datruth