Author Topic: Cd vs Vinyl  (Read 1143 times)

bilbous

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Cd vs Vinyl
« on: October 30, 2006, 07:44:28 am »
The topic I was discussing was  the qualitative differences between commercial albums and commercial CD's.

No.  Your statements made it quite clear that you were discussing the merits of CD versus vinyl in general.

When was the last time you had the equipment to lay down some tracks on vinyl? Approximately never ... right?  I know I never had it although I think my uncle has something in his basement to make 78's with. Therefore it follows I could only have been talking about commercial pressing of vinyl records. And from that it follows that I was talking about commercial cds. Lets face it if you are going to produce your own quality audio CDs a standard computer with run of the mill sound card is not going to cut it. You will likely need something on the order of $20000 in equipment to do a passable job. Sure you can make cds with a $500 computer but that is strictly amature hour. Even then you can get fairly good results if you know what you are doing.


The point about internal variation in classical music was not differences between compositions but differences within compositions some ranging from pianissimo up through fortissimo. Have briefly perused the wikipedia entries relating to metal it seems they have one thing in common which is the louder the better although this may be a poor description of the underlying theme. Certainly I would not expect any such extremely quiet sections in such music as is found in Emerson Lake & Palmer's "Just Take a Pebble" song. A genre characterized by extreme volume would not seem to be a candidate for normalization as there are few quiet parts that need boosting.

Don't go to wikipedia to learn about metal.  Find someone who understands the genre and have them educate you using musical examples.  Loud music can be listened to at a low volume, quiet music can be listened to at a high volume, and even loud songs will suffer from the over-use of compression.  For instance, with every bass drum hit, the rest of the tracks may disappear as they are made quieter to allow for the bass frequencies to be squeezed into the waveform.  The best way to prove it would be to run a metal track through compression and then use your ears to hear the difference.

Having been a music consumer for 35-odd years I think I know enough. Metal music in general is loud and aggressive. the more extreme types that have grown from its roots have only gotten louder and more aggressive. What used to be metal is now merely hard rock. Oh and you say squeezed and I said squashed what is the difference? How much goo comes out of my ears when I have to listen to it?

Differences in the target media.

Amounting to...? ???  You didn't answer my question.
Yes I did, repeatedly. if you need it explained then amounting to what we have been talking about.

Nice term but it was not an attack, it was a statement of definition which was finished in the next section.

It was an ad hominem because you were attacking me as a person instead of what I was saying.  I think you're smart enough to understand that.
My saying you are not an expert is not an attack it is a statement of fact. Talk to me again when you have worked at the top of the industry for 20 years. Then you will be an expert. Right now from what I can tell you are an ardent amateur. I am a slightly interested spectator.

This qualifies you to speak to commercial music production?  Tell me what label you are signed with, one recording I can go down to the local music chain and buy that you mastered and I'll concede that you are an "Expert" though I won't really believe it.
Do you have access to the million dollar equipment on a day to day basis that a professional studio engineer pumping out album after album has? I don't think so.

What million dollar equipment are you thinking of specifically?  Premium analog equipment can run for that much.  That's why digital is so popular:  Because digital recording studios can achieve superior quality to analog at a fraction of the cost.  That said, a lot of people like analog equipment because of the vibe, and there is good stuff out there.  Some of the things that make analog recordings "bad" are actually liked by a lot of people, so there's another argument in favour of analog.

Now, back to your statement:  I never said I was an expert.  You're building strawmen.  You're also using ad hominem attacks again:  You're attacking me as a person instead of what I'm actually saying.  Why not address what I'm actually saying instead of trying to start a flame war?

I did not start this discussion you could have left me to my "illusions" instead of taking issue with 6 words out of the post.
If you are not an expert then why is it an attack to say you are not an expert? Especially as I was trying to wind up the discussion. I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and I have tried to be cordial.

As for the equipment; the million dollar amount was obviously pulled out of my hat, but I would be willing to bet that the equipment in David Bowies home studio , for example, is quite a bit more pricey than the equipment in yours.


EDIT You have to understand that alot of my information may be out of date as it comes from the birth of the CD that is no reason to get overly involved in the discussion.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 07:49:24 am by bilbous »

zanzibar

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 07:57:05 am »
You don't lay down tracks on vinyl.  You cut vinyl after producing masters on tape.  I used to work entirely with tape masters before switching to digital.  Your early comments made it incredibly clear that you were talking about vinyl versus CD in terms of audio quality in general.  I still don't see what metal has to do with the discussion or why you brought it up.  I don't have to be an expert with 20 years of experience in order to be right.



You called this discussion futile.  It's only futile because you're making ad hominem attacks, you're building strawmen, you won't answer simple questions, and you redefine your position on convenience.  These are all the qualities of a troll.

I've asked you simple and direct questions.  I've backed up my opinions with arguments and explanations.  I took the time to make my posts intelligent and well worded.  I made my posts polite despite your increasingly aggressive and insulting tone.

Like you have in so many other threads, you have not returned the same level of respect.  All I see from you now is dodge after dodge and personal attack after personal attack.  You are trolling.  Someone with as much life experience as you profess to have should be above that.  If your wish is to be a part of the Planeshift community with any degree of success, I suggest that you quickly grow out of it.
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Immaturity is FTW.

Efflixi Aduro

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2006, 07:59:09 am »
The random things PSers will argue about...
How I missed it so. :)

They both play music and are useless now that computers are around. The end.
Lol Internet

zanzibar

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2006, 08:01:29 am »
B.A.N.A.N.A.S.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

bilbous

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2006, 08:47:07 am »
For some reason Zanzibar feels the need to correct everyone even when doing so contravenes the forum policy. Unfortunately I feel the need to respond in some instances. Sadly this makes us both look bad although he seem to think he comes off smelling like roses.This whole thing came about because he took issue with some throwaway off-topic comment at the end of a post the was generally on topic to the thread. I have to admit my debating skills are not going to get me into Harvard Law school anytime soon. I think that this thread along with the following posts should all be deleted due to being off topic and or generally against forum policy. Alternatively the following could be moved to the start of this thread and this thread can die a well earned death. I will edit out the throwaway comment that started the whole thing. I think I've listed all the relevant posts.

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg292611#msg292611
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg292685#msg292685
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg292726#msg292726
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293029#msg293029
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293036#msg293036
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293039#msg293039
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293042#msg293042
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293044#msg293044
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293051#msg293051
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293060#msg293060
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293065#msg293065
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293077#msg293077
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293099#msg293099
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293165#msg293165
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293168#msg293168
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=6397.msg293181#msg293181


zanzibar

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2006, 08:55:06 am »
Oh god.  You were caught being wrong, you were caught trolling, so now you want the mods to clean up the mess just so that you can save face?  It doesn't work that way.

And the posts weren't off topic, depending on how you look at it.  Favourite music can also mean your favourite way to experience music.

edit: spelling
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 09:01:03 am by zanzibar »
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

bilbous

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2006, 09:17:20 am »
Hey it can stay as it is.  I don't care although it did mess up the other thread. You've been attacking me from nearly post one and your first post stripped away the meat of my first post and concentrated on what to me was a joke. You didn't seriously think I was going out to look for a turntable did you? Perhaps that was my first mistake, not telling you it was not a serious comment. I was taken off balance that anyone would want to bother with that.

zanzibar

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2006, 09:20:58 am »
I didn't attack you.  I didn't ignore the substance of your posts.

Another troll tactic is to acuse the other guy of the very things you yourself are guilty of.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

bilbous

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2006, 09:33:37 am »
I didn't attack you.  I didn't ignore the substance of your posts.

Another troll tactic is to acuse the other guy of the very things you yourself are guilty of.

Oh, What comments did you make about the bands I was talking about? I must have missed that post somewhere, can you show me the link please?

zanzibar

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2006, 09:40:15 am »
What the heck are you talking about?  Saying that my opinion doesn't matter because I don't have a million dollar studio and 20 years experience is one thing.  Saying crap that just makes no sense is worse.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Karyuu

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2006, 09:41:53 am »
Take a breather, guys. If you have a real topic to discuss, please return to discussing it.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

zanzibar

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2006, 09:48:08 am »
Take a breather, guys. If you have a real topic to discuss, please return to discussing it.


I think it's been done for a while now.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

bilbous

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2006, 06:13:32 pm »
There never was a real topic, he ignored the substance* of my original post in the original thread and concentrated on six words that were off-topic to that thread, since removed. The rest was pointless arguing. Sorry. I will try not to make jokes in the future. People don't seem to get them anyway.

*Substance
Quote from: The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 [gcide]
the characteristic and essential components of anything; the main part; essential import; purport.      [1913 Webster]



miadon

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2006, 07:46:56 pm »
I think the real question should be:

HD-DVD vs BD? which format should win the HD war? or should everything just be streamed which is far more environmental.
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Monketh

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Re: Cd vs Vinyl
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2006, 09:39:10 pm »
Streamed? No way. I cannot depend on large corporations to act in a proper manner, just as I refuse to give my home devices internet access.  The security and consumer rights disadvantages outweigh whatever environmental benefit might be gleaned from streaming.

As for HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray, it is a toss-up.  HD-DVD has less DRM, as I hear it, but BrD has more (substantially) storage capacity.
Seeing that both are already heavily DRM'd, and market pressure could be applied, and that BD has more capacity, I currently favor BD.

As for CD vs Vinyl.
Vinyl is dead to me.  It is horribly impratical, suffers degradation per use, and is more expensive to attain measureable benefit.  Why would people choose to spend far more money for a less convenient system, with little difference in sound quality?
I love my $25 soundcard.
(Aside from that, I listen to mostly electronic music, which is not made into vinyl as often.)
The key to manipulative bargaining is to ask for something twice as big as what you want, then smile and nod when you are talked down to your original wish. You are still young, my apprentice, and have much to learn in the ways of the force. -UtM