@Suno Rign: It is quite interesting that you say that I (and in fact almost everyone else on the boards) never (or rarely) read the other's responses, let alone the threads. I make quite an effort to read the entire thread before posting, but I disagree WRT most others here, too. Yes, some people actually don't read much, but these are just a few members of the community.
What actually amused me is that you yourself showed just this attitude:
You've probably roleplayed with half of them already, but I don't really know who your characters are, nor do you know mine.
Yet I had clearly and unmistakably stated who they are.
I have only one single account, and this single account has two characters: one for RP (Netrhys) and the other (Seytra) solely for testing
Maybe their low number of
2, which in reality is just one (
1) since, as I stated, the other is merely for testing and not for RP, is so alien a concept to you, possibly due to your going through chars like others go through cups of coffee, that you didn't even notice the sentence. But it's on page 1 of this thread, so maybe that doesn't count?
Likewise,
It's people like you I try to "hide" from
is interesting, since I myself asked you, in the precise post that you quoted, to avoid me ingame, since you obviously are unwilling to give me any chance of avoiding you (which I'd gladly do, instead of sneakily trying to "befriend" you, which you are claiming to be an acceptable measure; is it possible that you fear that others might do to you what you do to them?).
There is something that I feel I should clarify:
When I am talking about telling who one is OOC-ly, I do mean
neither of these:
- handing over your real name, place of residence, or any other personal information.
- telling everybody who you may end up talking to who you are on the boards, or what alts you have
In fact, I very much value the anonymity of the internet, as paradox as it may sound.
But, and this is a huge "but", I also very much value honesty, and this forces these conclusions:
-
If I tell somebody something about myself, then this
has to be true (thus I rarely do it, and tell them that).
- If I talk to someone whom I have talked to under a different name, then I
must tell them so.
The second one is what I was referring to in my posts: it is perfectly fine to play an alt and not tell anyone that
you are playing that alt.
But as soon as you start to (meaningfully) interact with someone with whom you have already (meaningfully) interacted with using another alt, then you need to tell them that you also played that other alt. You don't need to mention other alts that they have never gotten to know, only that alt that they have met already. However, it may still be a good idea to "reveal" all alts, because it may happen that both have additional alts, with which they might meet in the future, thereby having no chance to "reveal" themselves.
For clarification: "meaningful interaction" means conversations of more than a few minutes. With OOC, the time usually is longer, because the conversation rarely is as distinct as in the IC case.
Why? And why is not doing this "treachery" in my eyes? Because, unlike most other interactions on the internet, RP
=trust. I RP only with those players whom I trust to at least a certain minimum. This trust involves the player alone, not the character. This trust, BTW, is what those of you who have had issues like another player taking some IC action for a reason of an OOC grudge may have failed in creating. I am even inclined to say that you may be the same players whom I don't trust, and whom I thus (try to) avoid. Interestingly, these players tend to be those that were PLing in the beginning, and who advocate (or advocated) that as fully IC, and to top it off, who advocate(d) the "deal with it" idea of "RP", and who tend to claim that for example spawn-stealing, or acting ingame based on what your OOC mood is ("one day I like to help newbies, the next day I like to slay them"), is RPing an evil character (which it isn't). (Yes, despite it being not disallowed in the rules, I view using macros and faster reactions, etc. in order to attack a MOB before someone else as stealing, just as bad as conventional KSing)
In short: if you have earned the trust of another RPer, then they will be able to distinguish between IC and OOC quite well, even if you do something non-nice to them IC-ly (and since the trust naturally is mutual, you will have clarified and agreed upon the act beforehand OOC-ly, knowing that the other will tell you what they are capable of accepting, and accept it if there is valid RP reason).
Therefore, if you have built up the mutual trust, there is no way that there can exist a problem like what you claim:
I've screwed up in any little roleplay or I said something to offend someone and they knew who I was outside of my character.
You cannot through IC interaction create unfixable OOC problems if you have achieved trust: you will get instant notification, the opportunity to rethink, and correct, all without loss of trust. Likewise, merely saying something IC-ly can not ever offend someone OOC-ly, if there is trust. Trust in that you are a decent RPer, who does their best to stay IC and true to the character at all times, and trust that you, as player, are a "good" person, so that even if you accidentally mix IC and OOC and say something bad, you don't mean it OOC-ly.
Frankly, I have absolutely
no interest in doing one second of RP with a player who is an OOC jerk, even if that player were the grand master of RP, and the very essence of IC-ness. I'd rather talk undesignated OOC in 1337 via /shout (though I'm much more likely to just leave, obviously).
It is very obvious that, because this trust can only come with time, one cannot immediately fully RP with a new character (unless it's an alt of a trusted player).
Why is this trust so important (BTW, it
is the very same trust that I tend to emphasize in the context of RPing "evil" chars)? Because it serves as a protection for your own RP. A protection against players who have no clue, or who are OOC jerks, or who simply have radically different concepts of RP than you. All of these can destroy your RP, and possibly character, in less than a minute, or simply force your RP in directions that you don't enjoy (possibly making you abandon your char).
Please don't confuse this with being elitist: I do welcome newbies, and I also RP with them. However, my RP will initially be less deep then with others whom I already know. This of course doesn't usually matter, because there's much IC "getting to know each other" to be done for each new character, anyway, which in itself will be less deep RP.
Likewise, if an established player doesn't seem to be my cup of tea, then I'll be certain to avoid deep RP with that player's characters. This should be in everyone's interest, anyway, since chances of something good coming from it are slim. I don't see how Karyuu (or anone else) can engage in truely deep RP without trusting the other players; after all, you are putting the entirety of thought and work and time building up a character (RP-wise) up for the bet. Don't you value your creation, or do you rely entirely on post-act ignoring (i.e., "my char didn't get killed by that newbie wannabe-evil who didn't know how to properly RP, it never happened")?
it's just "restarting" and turning old enemies into new friends.
I completely fail to see how this can at all happen. How can there be even just an OOC grudge, with you still having a sincere interest in getting to befriend the other player? Are you
sure that it is
not the desire to gain some advantage other than making a new friend? Likewise, if you sincerely regret and are interested in fixing the situation, how can it be possible that the other player will not accept it, and will give you the chance to do so? After all, you
are being sincere, and you
actually have learnt from whatever mistake it was, and
are doing your best to improve?
I always try to create a new start ingame, trying to fix what I did wrong before. Until then, I can't enjoy it without thinking back to times I've screwed up in any little roleplay or I said something to offend someone and they knew who I was outside of my character. Calls for a restart. I restart, fix that problem by either coincidentally becomming friends with that person, or just not running into them again.
I fail to get this, either. How can you "coincidentally" become friends with someone you have wronged before? Why did you wrong them? Why would you even
want to befriend them, if, for example, you think you were in the right? Are you still absolutely sure that your intentions are in fact genuinely honest, not merely trying to get away without apologising?
How can you even
think of "being friends" with someone whom you not even
tell that you wronged them, let alone make not even the slightest try to fix the situation?
I certainly am assuming here, but to me this feels like a sad excuse for avoiding responsibility, and it is the
exact opposite of my notion of "being trustworthy".
@Suno Reign: to be clear on this: in my book, FESFES / Efflixi Aduro ranks much higher than you, because Efflixi not only tried to actually improve, but also, contrary to you, didn't try to sneak his way out of responsibility.
Now, it certainly is impossible to enforce this (just as any other common courtesy). Also, there certainly are morally acceptable uses for sneak-alts in the rare cases I outlined.
However, if there is even the slightest chance of creating the impression that this sort of thing is anything other than an emergency measure (and I don't see how this can help if all other things fail) or shortlived RP support techique, then we will be completely unable to act against abusers. IOW, if we give blanket permission, like Karyuu seemingly did, then we will not be able to even make a point about abuse of any sort!
@Zhai: I completely second your view: that player
was OOC, and as much as I hated the entire idea of Dwarvensbane for reasons that don't belong here, and also can understand the views of that player, it still was inacceptable (if it happened the way it was described, as I cannot verify it).
But even if it were universally agreed to have been abuse, and even if it were even more obviously OOC, with this blanket permission given, all we might hope to do is to give the player a warning, but an unenforcable one.
You can lie to the characters, but you shouldn't lie to the players.
should be "A character may lie to other characters, but a player must never lie to another player".
@Phinehas: Obviously there's less chance for someone RPing an evil char to gain trust, even OOC-ly, since due to the enormous potential for abuse and accidental mis-use, RPing "evil" is generally seen as a hint of a questionable player. It's obviously even less likely that that
character will end up getting friends (you basically get what you give, in this respect).
However, I don't see issues with you on the forum, given that this is an entirely OOC place (save the RP sub-boards), though I may be missing things. Of course, if you OOC-ly are similar to "evil" (for which I don't recall evidence), then I must say that you get what you deserve.
But the general problem in your case is something that is, FAICT, unavoidable, regardless of alts: players eventually leave. It may take longer with alts for the player to leave, but I think that without alts, the player would have left by the time they otherwise created their first alt.
Regarding the level of people vanishing unexpectedly being realistic: this is a misconception. In the medieval times that PS is set in tech-wise, there was little means of transportation, and thus the populations were generally more stable. News travelled, but people didn't, unless they were merchants or somesuch. It was not possible to leave unexpectedly without a trace, as the preparation would have taken time, so unless you actually planned, and took measures for, an unexpected and undetected departure, then this would be pretty unlikely.
Therefore, being killed by some unknown cult is less realistic than simply packing and leaving for another level.
