Old Player, New Character

[Seytra]

Press gangs caused people to disappear

You mean for ransom?

suddenly as did the overbearing nobility at the slightest perceived insult from a peasant. Even the retainers of the nobles abused the common 'scum' that toiled in the fields. If you were nobility you did not disappear unless you slighted more powerful nobles but even family was no guarantee your head would not get chopped or you got shipped off to govern the colonies or marry a cousin.

I hadn't thought of that, but wouldn't all of that at least be known to those surrounding the person vanishing, or create rumors? I.e., it would still be known where you went, even if it's not possible to reach you, unlike in PS, where someone may log out one day, never to log in again?

[bilbous]

Press gangs: Basically the Captain of a ship would order his men to go into a town and "press" some locals into service often using broken oars and such as billy clubs. By the time these unfortunates woke up they would be at sea and have a choice between joining the crew and swimming home. Since there would typically be no land in sight when they were allowed on deck it wasn't much of a choice.

As far as the other goes, it may or may not. Rumors and suspicions are not definitive knowledge. If you go off-line I could just as easily assume your character is sleeping. If you stay off-line it is possible your hours and mine just haven't matched however both are out of context. I am perfect capable of claiming that Anthony (I think his name was) who I haven't seen since last year is the petrified kran. I can make up any kind of tale for someone who no longer plays, where is the difference? And if nobody sees them drag you off to your Oubliette nobody will know what happened to you.

[Monketh]

Regarding the level of people vanishing unexpectedly being realistic: this is a misconception. In the medieval times that PS is set in tech-wise, there was little means of transportation, and thus the populations were generally more stable. News travelled, but people didn't, unless they were merchants or somesuch. It was not possible to leave unexpectedly without a trace, as the preparation would have taken time, so unless you actually planned, and took measures for, an unexpected and undetected departure, then this would be pretty unlikely.
Therefore, being killed by some unknown cult is less realistic than simply packing and leaving for another level.

Wait, mental typo I suspect...
p(a) is low, therefore p(b) is low?
Randomly leaving wouldn't happen because the effort required would be visible, therefore the other outcome is less likely?

Suno may have forgotten your character names as they probably not something he encounters very often.  You're probably right that character names are less important to those with many characters, though.

Despite that, I still think you're being paranoid.  But I've already made my points.

[zanzibar]

@Seytra:  Your use of the phrase "meaningful interaction" makes me suspect that you're refering to something very OOC, something like OOC chatting.  Your statement that "RP=trust" doesn't really make sense to me either.  I'm thinking that the way you're using the word "trust" might mean something different to you than it might mean to others.  What it sounds to me like is that you're just taking things way too seriously, but I'm probably misunderstanding you.

It is very obvious that, because this trust can only come with time, one cannot immediately fully RP with a new character (unless it's an alt of a trusted player).

Actually, it isn't obvious at all.  I roleplay all the time with people who I've just met or don't know very well.  And I don't understand this business about protecting your RP experience, how is it possible for someone else to destroy your character if you don't want it to happen?  Can you give an example?  What's the difference to you between "RP" and "deep RP"?

How can you "coincidentally" become friends with someone you have wronged before? Why did you wrong them? Why would you even want to befriend them, if, for example, you think you were in the right?

This is actually a very thought provoking question.  Why would you ever want to become friends with someone you hate?  My answer would be because it would help you understand why that person did what they did and it would help you overcome your own feelings of hate or bitterness.  You don't owe your enemies anything, but you owe it to yourself to forgive them.  It's a lesson I've learned the hard way.

I can share a story which might help demonstrate this.  When I was younger, a bunch of guys just randomly picked me up and beat the living hell out of me.  I was really messed up and they only stopped because help came.  When we saw eachother, they were scared because of how well I handled myself during the fight - and because I didn't show them any sign of fear.  But I was really shaken by the experience.  I probably had PTSD from it, because other events in my life (stopping fights, witnessing gangs attack eachother) later brought me back to that fight mentally and I would have to take care of myself for a while.  The next year though, I went to a festival.  And I ran into that same group of guys.  I was with some of my friends.  They started (crap) talking us, we started to (crap) talk them.  Until I just stopped everyone and said, "Hey look.  We can either beat the (crap) out of eachother, or we can hang out.  I'd rather have a friend than an enemy."  So for the rest of the festival, we hung out and talked.  The next time I saw any of them, it was their "leader" of sorts at a friends birthday party.  We made a joke about what had happened in the past then didn't speak much to one another.

Did things have to turn out that way?  No, I made a choice.  I think I gained more than I lost.  And no, I had no interest in making a friend that day, and I didn't.  That wasn't what was important.

[Seytra]

@ bilbous: I see, I wasn't aware of these press gangs (though they seem to not be an option in Yliakum, given it's geography). I agree that rumors aren't "knowledge", but I interpreted the "vanishing" of people as truly traceless and without prelude (like someone simply giving no explanation for their char's disappearance, and instead just loging out), like an abduction by aliens. In this case, there would not even be a basis for rumors.

@ Monketh: Indeed the "Therefore" should have been an "Also".

I meant to say that
1) it requires some effort if a person actually wishes to leave without a trace (making arrangements for pick-up outside town, sneaking there, along with any luggage (almost everything must be left to stay), making sure the pick-uppers don't talk, etc.)
2) that effort would therefore not be expended without good reason, and thus rarely
3) unknown cults are very unlikely by themselves, especially if their interest focuses on one person only, who more than likely is unrelated to their cult
4) thus, people would, if they vanish, tend to neither be killed by such a cult, nor vanish without a trace, and instead simply pack their stuff and leave, to seek their fortune elsewhere. This is even more likely given that most PCs are at least semi-adventurously minded.
5) or, as bilbous mentioned, they would be taken away by some other means, which however have a prelude, and thus at least give basis for rumors.

[bilbous]

@ bilbous: I see, I wasn't aware of these press gangs (though they seem to not be an option in Yliakum, given it's geography). I agree that rumors aren't "knowledge", but I interpreted the "vanishing" of people as truly traceless and without prelude (like someone simply giving no explanation for their char's disappearance, and instead just loging out), like an abduction by aliens. In this case, there would not even be a basis for rumors.

The less information the more likely there will be rumors generatred due to speculation. If a lowly apprentice has had enough of his masters abuse he is likely to slip off in the night with a bundle of possesions (his and his masters) and whatever food he can find. Naturally he won't want to be discovered and will hide his escape. Supposing the level below is having a war with the level below that they may have press gangs to come up to this level and conscript travellers or just kidnap people for slave labor. Young women can be kidnapped and forced to work in brothels and whatnot.

Just because someone logs off never to re-appear does not mean you cannot make up stories to cover their absence.   As far as people logging off in front of you goes you have to expect that it is going to happen and assume they walked out of sight. If you do not make allowances for such things your role play will always be disrupted. You have to be flexible enough not to let it phase you. Why should I make an in context excuse for an out of context action? It doesn't make sense, it just puts a spotlight on the out of context action. Logging off IS Out of context, ergo making an excuse for logging off is also out of context.   

[Phinehas]

I understand what you're saying, Bilbous, but if you multiply by the number of people who just drop their characters, it gets unrealistic. I'm willing to say that it's highly unlikely that more than 5% of the population would have reason to disappear without a trace...

[bilbous]

True enough but immortal characters are also unrealistic as is not aging. Maybe they just died one to many times and the light was unable to fill them anymore. Or perhaps they reached perfection and gone to live with their god? From experience in this world, which is where realism originates, 100% of people die. Some come back to life after being clinically dead but that is extraordinary, they always die again later on. So what happened to that guy in your story that you aged to death? Did he go to the death realm and return as good as new or did he mysteriously cease to exist?

What I am saying is that some things have to be accepted as a given even if we don't like them because otherwise we have nothing or nothing but trouble.

[Phinehas]

Well, I'd be careful, because you're also saying, "Lots of things are bad, so we shouldn't even try to improve this one." Now, I know that's not what you meant, but my opinion is still that rather than accepting everything blindly we should strive to improve. I don't expect everyone to drop their alts just because I don't think it's a great idea, but I'm going to continue to not hide my disapproval in the hopes that it will make people think about how flippant creation of alts affects the RP and the community.

[zorbels]

i ahd made an alt purely to avoid all of drama and still enjoy the game

I have made alt's and have enjoyed the game from another characters point of view. I have enjoyed playing characters with way different stories and personalities than my main character Zorbels. I have kept them to myself. I do this because I have had first hand experience when it comes to telling someone [Hey I actually play Zorbels as well as this character].

At first I felt like I owed it to my friends to be honest and let them know. That all changed when I produced an alt and told no one it was me. I realised how I could actually settle for getting into another character and really feeling the personality, seeing Yliakum from their point of view. I created a new life  and was free to make choices I couldn't otherwise with Zorbels, due to her character traits. I didn't have interuptions and provoke OOC talk with my character anymore. I approached people with the mentality that I was meeting them for the first time. I enjoyed new role-plays and grew to respect certain players because I could see them in a new light.

These Alt's = characters still live amoung you all in planeshift and I feel I have done a good job with them if no one has guessed who the player behind the face might be. The reason I feel good about that is because your seeing what should be ...... Characters in planeshift. Not the face behind the player. This to me is in no way wrong. I have never used my alt's to purposely find out information for another character and all that sorts of bull. I certainly would never use my character to hurt someone's feeling in RL or to spy on people OOC'ly. People who do that are most likely unhappy and depressed looking to drag you down with them. They will only if you let them. You will find that everywhere in life though. Even Yliakum is not safe from the "real World" and "Bad Personalities."

That however should not prevent me from having my alt stay secret. I feel that I make a difference in Yliakum with my characters and feel it is a positive effort. If someone doesn't like my one character but does another, that doesn't matter because again they are seeing what they are supposed to see and thats a character in planehshift with a personality that they get along with. Not the face behind the player that they hate so much.

It comes down to choice. Do you choose to tell that person who you are or not? Look at this thread and make your decisions wisely because in the end everyone will react different. There is no right or wrong answers in this debate, it is all how you personally feel about it. I will say this though ... to have an open mind and not a closed one is far more interesting and fulfilling.

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~

To the original topic that this thread started. I think it is absolutely stupid that a "old" character acting like a "new" character would take the time to inquire about game controls. I have heard it mentioned many times in this thread and I agree. I think it is ok to ask for directions being IC and role-playing a new comer to Yliakum. Asking about game controls is just a waste of time, and your really fooling nobody because you are just being paranoid that everyone can guess who you are. When in reality that person is most likely just role-playing with you and clueless. Your only wasting your time and theirs.

* zorbels looks up and grows wide eye'd

Wow didn't mean to type that much, hope it was worth it. I am off to bed and thank you for taking the time to read this if you make it this far. I appreciate it.

[neko kyouran]

(below is in respondance to Phinehas' last post.  While I was typing, Zorbels also posted, I'll go read what she wrote now.)

And I respect that opinoin of yours Phiney, but I'm also curious as to what your response to my example I have given is.

As a reminder:

For me, I have the main character, but, I'm sorry to say, I get bored with playing 1 character.  Be it vastly unfinshed game mechanics or not, months and months, and countless hours, even if its just a few here and there at a time, after awhile, things do start to get a bit stale. Rather than letting the RP atmosphere suffer, I then decide it's time to put this character down and try something else.

This game is supposed to be fun, not a second life.  So after 3-4 months, as that's how long it normally takes for me to start to get bored and the value of my RP starts to degrade, I send my main off an exploration adventure.  Then I crate a fresh character and start a different role.  To keep it fresh, to have fun.

This isn't to say that I don't bring back my adventuring characters.  And I make sure to bring them back in a way that fits with the game in a RP way.  That is, not to simply start playing them one day after a "hiatus" of a few months, and have them act like everything is normal, just as they left it.

So my question for thought is, would you rather have people not play alts, and gradually watch as thier fun and motivation dries up to the point that their RP suffers, maybe to the point where they just quit playing the game altogether, or would you rather have people use alts, and keep the RP atmosphere fresh and lively?  And when they feel like playing their older characters again, they bring them back and the good times continue.  Maybe they bring back tales of their adventures, why they have been away, maybe searching for something, etc.

To be quite honest, since the day I made my first char, I've only used 3, all on the same account.  I do have a fourth, but that isn't for RP purposes.  I've even had my three characters interact with each other a little bit, to spice things up.  It's what keeps the game fun for me.  It allows me to try things that would be way out of character if I only used one.  

I'm sorry to say that playing one character, to me at least, doesn't keep the fun for me.  Maybe it's due to the current developement of the game, maybe its just a flaw in what makes me, me.  I use alts as a way to keep the game fresh and fun and lively, not just for me, but with the people that interact with my characters as well.  I'm sure they would rather have me using a few different characters to keep my RP up, rather than me just use one, and watch as I get bored and start to let the RP slip, probably to the point where they'd not want to be around my character any longer.

Thoughts?

Edit, after reading what zorbels put, erm yeah, what she said.   

[bilbous]

304739 accounts = 1218956 possible characters at 4/account (I saw somewhere.) Let us say for arguments sake that  2/3s of the accounts are inactive. These numbers are straight out of my hat. That still leaves 406318  possible characters(rounded down.) If every account used only one character the population would be 101579 (again rounded down.) That would make hydlaa about 70,000 and oja about 30,000 judging from their relative sizes and not accounting for rural dwellers. The towns are fairly small by todays standards but not so small that someone could not go missing.Now these numbers ane undoubtable inaccurate except the # accounts i took from laanx statistics page. We can probably assume that more the 2/3s of accounts are inactive. Inevitably though the average characters per account is greater than 1 for active accounts. I feel that these population numbers for the towns are of the proper order. Looked at another way there is an average of about 120 people online at any given moment. To go much further into the analysis I would need to know the average connection time. I had three characters on today at various times only ever one at a time and I have seven characters over three accounts.

I've sort of lost track of where this is going, nowhere, I guess, but perhaps someone can help me out with further analysis.

[zorbels]

* zorbels head spins as she reads bilbous post

Gah, Numbers! I think i knew what you were getting at ..... Wait here it comes......

Oh look a butterfly!

* zorbels chases the butterfly

I look forward to your futher analysis bilbous.

[zanzibar]

Uh... I think the devs know exactly how many characters there are.  You could probably get the number from someone on IRC.

[bilbous]

* zorbels chases the butterfly

Stop it!!! You'll cause a hurricane!  Or make a 90 year old actress marry a 13 year old actor!
Oh wait she was younger than that...and...he was older.

I guess my point was that the community is not so small that you can know everyone and nobody could disappear without notice. It is true that your 5% could be considered to be regulars and would have visibility akin to the noble classes of yore. Still if the king were to cause someone to disappear it might be very dangerous to talk about it.