Author Topic: Killsteal Concept  (Read 4989 times)

Nyramael

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2006, 06:25:22 am »
A few thoughts:
NPCs have or used to have endurance, you could wear that out completely in full defensive stance and then attack them without being hit in bloody stance. I used that with magic. Mind you some mobs do have a lot of endurance :P

The speed of the weapon that you use is supposed to be the time it takes for you to pull back and swing the thing, which means the mob will see someone start to attack first - the server will receive one message before the other. A possible solution is to have the mob lock on to the first attacker. This means that mages and players with slow weapons will still have a chance to attack as well. From the mob's persepective, the first person to attack you would be the immediate threat and so you'd go after them and block/dodge/stay out of range of other assailants. If the player runs out of range say 10 m, the mob should loose interest and return to their spot or whatever they were doing, like patrolling an area. Groups could be treated as one assailant with the mob attacking the first attacker, and perhaps skilled mobs like tough gladiators being able to focus on multiple players.

I dunno, i'd tend to agree with Zorbels here:
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These races in planeshift are not uncivilised or in a depression so there is no excuse for bad manners
If you're in the arena then chances are you are a warrior in for training. Its basic and common respect for a warrior to let another finish his training without interfering! The same goes for hunters, you don't intentionally steal game, or hog it.

And why do people have to not say anything? Mobs don't move very fast (walk or creep). Run a short distance, hit enter to go to the chat window, type help, hit return to send the message, hit enter again and keep on running. Or if you find yourself doing that often, here's a thought, make a short cut :)


Einnol

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2006, 06:40:06 am »
Really, healing mages and clerics should be supporting magic users for a group.  It used to be that we would always team up to fight the rogues, ulbernaughts, and briggands.  Now, it seems like almost no one fights as part of a group.  If you can heal yourself easily during a battle, then that's even less motivation for people to work together.

While not really on-topic as far as killstealing, this sparked my interest.  Perhaps if healing another character (as long as they were below 100% to prevent a PL exploit) awarded some amount of experience, there would be more motivation for a 'healer' or 'supportive' type of character.  Eh, just a thought.  If there is enough interest, that could warrant a seperate discussion maybe.

More on-topic:  I think that sometimes it is hard to gauge if someone needs help.  As an example (which I have been faced with a few times), suppose you just happen to come across someone battling (perhaps being chased by) an ulbernaut and you know that you are capable of taking on the creature and are not intending on stealing it from the the other.  Faced with this situation, what do you do?:

1.  Ask them if they need help, wait for a response, then (if and only if they really do need help) invite to group and wait for them to accept it, then assist them.  (This is not always easy in the heat of battle.)

or

2.  Do nothing and either continue on your merry way or stay and watch what happens.  This decision leads to two possibilites:  Either the other one was indeed in trouble and ends up getting killed or escaping, or they were fine and they succeed in killing the creature.

Regardless, there are a lot of possibilities and decisions involved on both sides here.

Now, let's assume the 'assisting' player could go ahead and attack the creature and then received a system message similar to 'You assist <claiming character name> by attacking <creature> without any hope of receiving experience.'  Should the first (the 'engaged') player get a choice thru a prompt of whether to allow the 'assisting' player to help them defeat their foe?  Could this prompt itself cause the currently engaged player to be distracted enough that their character gets killed?  Could this prompt become a new way of spamming another and exploiting a game mechanic?  These questions lead to a fundamental rethinking of the entire group/experience/killstealing/spamming mentality.

@Shadow Nose:  Very interesting concept about learning by watching 'a master at work'.  In a way, it makes a lot of sense that our characters could learn by observing others apply the skills that they have learned.  But, the biggest problem would be how to avoid an exploit by differentiating between 'studious observation' and 'being in the general area while AFK for an hour and gaining experience for basically doing nothing at all'.   ;D

Under the moon

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2006, 07:56:11 am »
It has always puzzled me why EXP is only awarded on killing something. I agree with Mr. Nose on this completely.

eldoth_terevan

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2006, 09:57:51 am »
Good discussion. I am too tired to post but I liked reading it. Thanks everybody.

The Shadow Nose

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2006, 10:16:54 am »

@Shadow Nose:  Very interesting concept about learning by watching 'a master at work'.  In a way, it makes a lot of sense that our characters could learn by observing others apply the skills that they have learned.  But, the biggest problem would be how to avoid an exploit by differentiating between 'studious observation' and 'being in the general area while AFK for an hour and gaining experience for basically doing nothing at all'.   ;D

Well, one sort of idea that comes to mind... have a /watch command that you use to target one specific player character. Then as long as that player is targeted in your little target window (so that the red pattern marker is showing them) then you will get a little stream of XP coming in as you watch that person. If your target is killed or runs away to that you no longer target them then you no longer get that XP.

In theory, if you did something like stand in the arena stands, target one player that is repeatedly fighting one monster, then leave to go get lunch... you MAY be able to get away with constantly getting XP from them. But if that player runs off to go train a skill, stops to let someone else train at the monster, or if he gets killed then you lose sight of him and no longer get any XP from watching him.

I imagine that the idea situation using a /watch command in this manner is to have several people in the stands in the arena watching combatants fighting monsters. The spectators would be getting experience and while still targeting their respective fighters they could be chatting among eachother... roleplaying. If combat gets a bit more exciting and there is a bit more variety among the monsters released it could get pretty interesting. Get experience for PvP battles and then people may have to chose which combatant to 'root' for to get XP... though I may be getting ahead of myself there. I doubt PvP would become a fun arena sport if people have to trudge their way through the DR after every defeat.


Also, a healer could /watch the fighter he is paired with and since he has him targeted he can cast healing or buffing spells on his companion and would still get some XP by watching him in combat (I also agree that a healer should be able to get a little XP for each time they cast a spell to heal someone... heck I would say that even crafters should get a little XP when they make swords or melt iron or whatnot... but that's just me). Though if he ever takes his eyes off the fighter to combat a monster or pick up an item or whatnot, he may have to /watch his friend again to resume getting XP.


I suppose it might help the fighter know what is going on if whenever he gets /watch ed by a player he gets a message saying '<playername> is watching you' or something. Could help let them know is someone is gaining from their combat it that is something that worries them. Or if they think its a complement or if they are just wanting to help a newbie out by getting them a few XP to start out with.


Anyway, a /watch command that lets you get XP from examining a single target in combat would be most effective when you know that the target is going to stay near you and keep fighting. Some people may use this to powerlevel while AFK but it could only really work if the target is alright with that. Someone that doesn't like being watched could just walk away until they get out of sight to sever the 'connection' and then resume fighting or could just go to train their skills elsewhere.

It could also help roleplaying because people might tend to go to certain spots to watch the fighters and then would chat among themselves. They could roleplay while still getting some XP.


It has always puzzled me why EXP is only awarded on killing something. I agree with Mr. Nose on this completely.

Thank you very much. Personally, the leveling systems I liked the best are in Final Fantasy Tactics where each action you made gave you some experience and in The Sims where you can study or train in an area as long as your overall happiness level is good enough. In the Sims you really have to balance out a lot of factors to get the happiness you need to train in the tougher subjects for very long, I think thats why I like that better than the regular kill-stuff method.

Of course, those are different games but still the principle remains. I think that the idea of awarding XP primarily through monster combat is a rather nasty cliche that is perpetuated too much in other MMORPGs... mainly as a timesink to keep people playing to collect subscription money.

Anyway, hope those help.

Garile

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2006, 04:11:11 pm »
hmm if something like the watch command is implemented I would say it would have to work only once per kill. Then you would have to /watch again with the next monster to make sure someone doesn't simply stand next to a spawncamper and leaves for a few hours and still gains exp.

Not that exp is that hard to get but still that might change.
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eldoth_terevan

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2006, 04:33:30 pm »
I completely agree with Shadow and UtM on the experience thing. Now, one does get experience with Mining in game, so the basis for other skills besides combat giving experience is there. Just waiting for more skills, since the only way to get good amounts of it right now is by killing.

Parallo

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2006, 05:07:44 pm »
I have one Progression Point. Thats it. Haven't even used it yet! I wish there was some sort of way of gaining Exp. that didn't need strength. I mean Parallo is a weakling! Hes not going to kill things of cart gold from a mine!

Edit:
[off topic] Look, I'm a Hydlaa Resident now!  \\o// [/offtopic]
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 05:10:04 pm by Parallo »
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

Einnol

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2006, 05:34:34 pm »
If there was ever a way of gaining some benefit by watching someone, there probably should be some mental stamina drain associated with it as well like there is with most other activities.  This stamina drain itself would place some limit on how much it could be used and enforces the idea that your character is actively studying the actions of another and not just passively observing.

zanzibar

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2006, 07:02:12 pm »
I have one Progression Point. Thats it. Haven't even used it yet! I wish there was some sort of way of gaining Exp. that didn't need strength. I mean Parallo is a weakling! Hes not going to kill things of cart gold from a mine!

Edit:
[off topic] Look, I'm a Hydlaa Resident now!  \\o// [/offtopic]



Get some basic training in melee and light armour.  Kill the dwarf mercenary in the arena until you have enough PP to train your first level of crystal way.  Get a friend to buy you an arrow glyph and lend you an energy glyph.  Then get a friend to get an ulbernaught down to 2% for you, and then finish off the ulbernaught.  Bam, 18 progression points each time.

Is it cheating?  Yes.  But right now, the game mechanics are broken, so I don't feel too bad about it.
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Parallo

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2006, 09:20:07 pm »
But I'm not a warrior! Why would I train those skills? Lets say I want more charisma how do I get it? Fighting and mining. Thats not very IC for me though.
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

The Shadow Nose

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2006, 09:44:06 pm »
hmm if something like the watch command is implemented I would say it would have to work only once per kill. Then you would have to /watch again with the next monster to make sure someone doesn't simply stand next to a spawncamper and leaves for a few hours and still gains exp.

Not that exp is that hard to get but still that might change.


Oh for crying out... listen, I've read a few posts by other Phineas and some other roleplayers and from what I gather there are people out there who actually dislike spending hours and hours of their precious human lifespan pressing a button over and over to get XP for a virtual character (crazy isn't it). This irrational fear of people 'powerleveling' or 'getting something for nothing in a game' is just going to ruin the game for everyone.

I know this would give the potential for people to get XP while AFK... in fact that's kind of the whole point. One of the reasons people killsteal (which was the origional topic, sorry if I hijacked it) is to get some XP without having to whittle away at a monsters XP forever. If instead they can just park near a monster and /watch other fighters level and get some XP for free... then the need to killsteal goes down.

Plus, I don't know about anyone else... but this is a game. It is supposed to be fun, and frankly the combat system is not fun for me.

With the current setup, the game strongly favors grinding and powerleveling. Repeatedly killing monsters over and over for XP. When I wanted to train metallurgy, I had to go fight monsters to get the XP to train it... and got hurt alot because I was built to be a merchant or miner or crafter. I then had to train combat skills so I could fight monsters to get XP to train metallurgy which just doesn't make sense. I essentially reworked my whole character from being a crafter to being a fighter... just because that is the only way to get XP.

And another thing, suppose with the /watch command there is the potential for somebody to get a slow stream of XP (less then what they would get by fighting, about 1/10 or 1/4 depending on how generous the code might be) without having to mindlessly press buttons all day? what would they do in the mean time?

1. chat with their guild or people around them
2. read a book and learn things
3. get work done around the house

And also, if they /watch another character fight while AFK then they would not collect any of the loot from the monster, and therefore would have trouble training skills. They would have to get money from somewhere so they actually would have to spend game time to mine gold or whatever to get the money to pay for training. So really they still would not get 'something for nothing' because XP is pretty much useless in this game unless you have the money to pay for training.


If there was ever a way of gaining some benefit by watching someone, there probably should be some mental stamina drain associated with it as well like there is with most other activities.  This stamina drain itself would place some limit on how much it could be used and enforces the idea that your character is actively studying the actions of another and not just passively observing.

This is actually a good idea, while I personally think that the only having 1/10 to 1/4 of the XP getting registered to the watcher and the risk of the target leaving or stopping combat would be enough to add a bit of risk the idea of using the mental stamina to show it involves actual study could be nice.

But I would reccomend that it be used mainly as proof that it is studying or as a decrease in the mental stamina. So if a person has been watching combat for hours their mental stamina would be pretty low (they would still get all the XP due to them, that wouldn't get hurt) but if they tried engaging in an activity that uses mental stamina (like armed combat? not sure if that is mental stamina) immediatly afterwards then they would be caught off-guard and could get in trouble.


So the basic breakdown of a proposed /watch command would go:

-targets one player character for as long as that character is targeted
-as long as the subject is targeted the watcher gets a fraction of their XP gain (1/10 to 1/4) with no loss of XP to the one getting watched
-the watcher's mental stamina would slowly decrease which would add the risk that if they are surprised into armed combat they could get really hurt
-the player could then do a variety of things as long as the subject was still targeted. chat with others in Planeshift or even do something else entirely
-if they leave the game, there is the risk the subject will stop fighting, leave, die or whatever. also monsters may attack the watcher unawares which would all interrupt the watching process.
-even if they get lots of XP due to watching others, they would still need to get money to pay for training.


The way I see it, /watching would primarily work to benefit those who either did not build combat-oriented characters such as crafters or healers, those with new characters who need XP to level up stuff, and people who can think of more exciting things to do than sit around killing monsters.

I imagine combat /watching could actually form a sort of in-game version of entertainment. People go to the arenas to /watch the combat and would actually have an in-game incetive to do so. Popular among the merchant and crafter class who don't have the means to go through combat.




Get some basic training in melee and light armour.  Kill the dwarf mercenary in the arena until you have enough PP to train your first level of crystal way.  Get a friend to buy you an arrow glyph and lend you an energy glyph.  Then get a friend to get an ulbernaught down to 2% for you, and then finish off the ulbernaught.  Bam, 18 progression points each time.

Is it cheating?  Yes.  But right now, the game mechanics are broken, so I don't feel too bad about it.

Actually, if you wanted to help another player level up would you be okay fighting monsters while they /watch and gain XP, even if they were AFK for a long time? Suppose they were to pay you money or steel bars?

I personally think that the reason the mechanics are so broken is that people are afraid of othe people 'powerleveling' and try making features to prevent that.

The problem is that powerleveling by its very nature is the most efficient way to level up. Try to prevent powerleveling and you just make it harder for anyone to advance... its just that the powerlevelers will adapt and keep going while everyone else gets caught in the traps.

Kalika

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2006, 02:15:45 am »
I know that it's annoying, and I know why it bothers you, I just think that if you want to claim absolute ownership over a particular mob you're going to have to make a stronger case.

youre not seeing the point though....i said in one of my previous posts that taking the rogue is not necessarily WRONG but its RUDE...youre not seeing the point that ive been trying to make...no one is claiming absolute "ownership", it just courteous to wait till the other person is finished...

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zanzibar

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2006, 05:14:02 am »
But I'm not a warrior! Why would I train those skills? Lets say I want more charisma how do I get it? Fighting and mining. Thats not very IC for me though.

I'm afraid that the only answer is to do OOC things until the game is in a later stage of developement.


youre not seeing the point though....i said in one of my previous posts that taking the rogue is not necessarily WRONG but its RUDE...youre not seeing the point that ive been trying to make...no one is claiming absolute "ownership", it just courteous to wait till the other person is finished...

Ok, you find it rude.  If someone did it to me though, I'd understand their motivations.
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Under the moon

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Re: Killsteal Concept
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2006, 05:34:12 am »
Well thought out Shadow Nose. I would add to this that you do not get a % of the EXP that the actual attacker is earning, but rather a % of EXP times level of learning that that character already has. Such as, you will get more EXP from watching a master swords-man or smith at their craft, rather then someone like a journeyman. Also, I would say a master would earn no EXP from watching an apprentice.

I had actually had ideas based on this before, but in conjunction with a teaching skill. The teaching skill would activly 'show' anyone watching you, or linked in a teaching group with you, what skills you are using, and therefor improve thiers.

(sorry if that did not make much sense. very tired right now.)

*edit*

To get rid of the want to killsteal, you have to get rid of the need to killsteal.