Should a full defensive stance count as attacking a mob?

[zanzibar]

A situation came up in game today where someone claimed to own a mob because they were in combat with that mob, however that individual had been in a full defensive stance, and was probably parked there to rank up in a high level of armour skill.  So it's safe to say that the person had been "engaged" with the mob for quite some time, however it was in a full defensive stance.

The question:  Should a full defensive stance constitute an attack?  If it constitutes an attack, should it give ownership over the mob?  Is it possible to "kill steal" from someone who is engaged in combat with a mob but in a full defensive stance?


For:

- Full defensive is an attack, even if you aren't hitting the mob.
- You are in combat with the mob, and therefore if someone else attacks the mob, they are interupting the combat.


Against:

- Full defensive is not an attack, it's merely defending yourself.
- Full defensive stance is basically saying "I'm not going to attack you, but I'm going to prevent you from hurting me".  Therefore, it's not an attack.
- Since full defensive stance is not an attack, you are in combat with the mob, but you should not have a claim to ownership over the mob.  Others should be free to attack the mob since you are not attacking it yourself.


Thoughts?  I can see both sides of it, though I'm more inclined towards one side than the other.

[Janner]

 If you stayed long enough to watch you would have seen it did not take long, also you knew the person was there as you and she spoke.
 So now you have admitted you killstelled the merc, and it should get you punished as the game rules say you should.

"Killstealing"

Nobody owns a spawn, and nobody owns any attackable NPC unless they are already fighting it!
Taking an NPC from someone when they have already started an attack is considered kill stealing and will be punishable by GMs through warnings, and then further actions if the player continues.
There is no need to ask players around a spawn whether you can "join" - everyone has a right to hunt or attack NPCs, and no one can refuse to share with you, since there is no ownership.

[Idoru]

As far as I can see, KSing is exploiting a weakness in the game to KILL a mob that someone is trying to KILL.

To me if the player is not actually trying to kill the mob then it probably isnt classed as KSing.

[Anfa]

thought KSing was taking a mob that is already "engaged" in a fight with another player.
 Mob trying to kill you would be engaged in a fight with you. If you chose to toy with that mob, or let him hit you a few times to see how much damage he can do to you, or take the hits to upgrade your armor skills, you are still engaged in a fight.

[Nikodemus]

KS is BS in a roleplaying game. I refuse to accept it as its complete OOC.

[Jamppa]

KS is BS in a roleplaying game. I refuse to accept it as its complete OOC.

i agree, i always ask for a permission to join, i don't just dash in.

[Idoru]

KS is BS in a roleplaying game. I refuse to accept it as its complete OOC.

That is an excellent point, the rule is totally OOC, its totally believable that IC if you saw someone engaged in a fight with an evil rogue trying to kill them you might try to intervene and help them out.

Unless of course you mean KSing is OOC instead of a rule about KSing being OOC

[Garile]

KS is BS in a roleplaying game. I refuse to accept it as its complete OOC.

Ok thats just stupid Nikodemus sorry for saying. It's a pointless comment as KSing is an OOC topic yes but we are OOC here so why would you ignore it here? Also fighting is tottally OOC. Do you really thinkk in reality we would be killing thousands on thousands of rogues gladiators and whatnot? It might be a RPgame but it's still a game with OOCbehavior and OOCrules against them.

As for what killstealing is. Janner posted the GMguidelines. One can discus if that guideline should be formulated like that or not, but fact is that those are the rules right now, so everyone who took a mob away from someone in fulldefence is breaking the rules pure and simple.

[Nikodemus]

Garile:
I wouldn't post it if it was pointless. Of course KS is OOC topic as KS is OOC by itself and we are OOC also here. But appearently you forgot that your mind is undeveloped in that area, what also don't give you right to call people stupid for something you don't understand at all.
Try to remember this: We are OOC there, but we are talking purely about behaviour in game where everything is supposed to be IC

I said no word about killing thousands of things being also OOC, but i can completly agree with this. But i see you are just trying to make the game more OOC basing on OOC which is in it already and what sholdn't in the first place (I don't complain at devs as i know they did it this way to develop it furher later).
So if you refuse to RP in PS all the time, you are wasting its resources, as Talad said.

Idoru:

Unless of course you mean KSing is OOC instead of a rule about KSing being OOC

KS and any rule originating from it must be OOC.

[Garile]

Calling something you said stupid and calling a person stupid are different things Nikodemus.

And why do you asume I don't understand your point? I just said it was a stupid remark. Doesn't mean I don't understand why you made it and your post proves it was exactly why I thought you made the post.

I stick with my point. To ignore OOC stuff just becuase it is OOC in something that should be a mixture of RP and game and not just one or the other isn't the goal of Planeshift.

Also the fact that it might not be supposed to happen becuase we are all supposed to be IC makes it all the more important to have OOC rules against OOC misuse of the gamemechanics. So should it be ignored? Ofcourse not. It should be dealt with so as few people encounter it as possible.

[neko kyouran]

I think I'll post here.  not that my words mean anything, but the question interests me, so I post.

My view is one taken from how the game mechanics work.

Currently (as game mechanics can and do and will change over time), say I engage a mob, then run around not hitting it.  The lock out that prevents others from attacking it, exceeds, and my sole "right" to that particular mob instance is negated.  They are free to attack it and "take control" of that mob instance.

This time out is based on damage delt.  If I'm not doing damage, I'm not engaging the mob, therefore I'm not owner of the mob instance, therefore, I'm not attacking the mob, thus it is free for anyone to engage in combat.

By defenition, attacking the mob requires me to be hitting it.  If I am not hitting it for a period of time, this lockout expires, and the mob becomes free for someone else to attack, even it if is still currently attacking me.

Therefore, standing there in full defense, not doing damage, not keeping the lockout active, means you are not attacking the mob, therefore it is free for anyone else to attack.

Killstealing, would be if one player is doing damage to a mob, keeping thier lockout active to other players, and another player comming along, using a bug exploit to stop the curent player from being able to do damge to the mob, and take away thier lockout of said mob.

Simply comming along and attacking a mob that is currently attacking a character, but the character is not doing damage back, whether it be becuase of being in full defense or simply becuase they are too low a level to deal damage back. If they aren't doing damage for extended periods of time, the lock out expires, and the mob instance becomes available for anyone to take.

This then is not killsteal by definition, becuase, the game mechanics itself, allow for any player to come by and attack it.
----------------------------------------

another semi related topic:  attacking and engaged in combat are not one of the same.

attacking is actively engaged with a mob with the intent to kill it/do harm to it.  you are attacking a mob f you are doing damage.

engaged in combat encompases attacking in it, but they are not ne in the same since you can be in combat, but not attacking the target.  full defense, you are in combt, as the mobis trying to hurt you, but you are not attacking the mob, as you have no intent to harm the mob since you are in full defense.

it's easy to confuse the two.

i hope this makes sense.  writing posts after working 16 hour shifts and making them coherant is a bit hard.

[Datruth]

It's not Kill stealing.

It is a type of Training.

~~Datruth

[Parallo]

Killstealing, would be if one player is doing damage to a mob, keeping thier lockout active to other players, and another player comming along, using a bug exploit to stop the curent player from being able to do damge to the mob, and take away thier lockout of said mob.

It's not Kill stealing.

It is a type of Training.

~~Datruth

I hope you are refering to a different statement. Exploiting a bug is not training. Please specify what you are talking about.

[bilbous]

Personally I would be annoyed if I came up to someone fighting who didn't finish the kill within five minutes. I probably would not wait that long and would just move along to the next one. Also it would depend on the type of critter, and ulbernaut can be expected to take longer than a rat, as long as I could see progress being made towards completion of the battle I would be fine with it. That said I will address the topic more directly. I think that full defense for training purposes is fine for the early-mid levels i.e. as long as it is not going to be more than five minutes. If you need more time than that and someone is waiting for you to finish, you probably should make the kill and let the other party have a turn. Once you are taking turns full defensive should be right out although defensive attacks should be acceptable. If you are taking turns you should be making progress towards the kill.

I have a high level of light armor and sword and I never do this it is a waste of my time. Pert of the reason it is a waste of my time is that my pockets are not deep and training keeps me poor. I think that I would not do this anyway as it is boring and you reduce you chance of getting a good drop by limiting the number of drops you see.

I really think you should not generally take more than a minute to kill something but again there are some considerations that might make it necessary.

As far as training with ruined weapons go, I don't do it, the worst weapon I will use is one that can be storebought. unless possibly it has some stat bonus which I feel a need for which I mostly do not.

[Datruth]

Killstealing, would be if one player is doing damage to a mob, keeping thier lockout active to other players, and another player comming along, using a bug exploit to stop the curent player from being able to do damge to the mob, and take away thier lockout of said mob.

It's not Kill stealing.

It is a type of Training.

~~Datruth

I hope you are refering to a different statement. Exploiting a bug is not training. Please specify what you are talking about.

Standing in full defensive letting a monster hit you is a type of training, just as if you were to hit the animal and kill him.

In this case though you are training your armor, preferably your movement in it, as the gm's have written.