Author Topic: GuildWar Improvements  (Read 2070 times)

bilbous

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2006, 12:18:13 am »
Well right now /target is functional but I am sure it is far from a finished function. "Nearest" should take into account path blockages but it doesn't which is why it targets things that are down the hall, down the stairs around the corner and across the room instead of the thing which is down the hall just past the stairs. How the devs will amange to fix this is beyond me, I am sure if it was simple it would have been done

socia

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2006, 12:21:59 am »
Well right now /target is functional but I am sure it is far from a finished function. "Nearest" should take into account path blockages but it doesn't which is why it targets things that are down the hall, down the stairs around the corner and across the room instead of the thing which is down the hall just past the stairs. How the devs will amange to fix this is beyond me, I am sure if it was simple it would have been done

^^ I'm realy interested in how you would code this to make client/server don't lag when targeting...

bilbous

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2006, 12:26:59 am »
 :offtopic: Me? Well I might host it on Big Blue ... or is that Deep Blue .... or all joking aside, I haven't looked at any of the code or tried running my own server. I did say it was beyond me didn't I?

Garile

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2006, 03:40:35 am »
hmm those who say "click on enemy to target and than attack" realy should start dueling.. Drah is one of best suelers in ps, his point is right. When you are in war you exactly know who your enemy is...

Well I don't duel much anymore but I have been in a war a few times and that simply isn't true.

Ofcourse you useally know the people who are stronger and about the same strength as you are, but with a large guild against you you do not know them all.

Also this suggestion would kill a suprise attack or for a large part hiding to get away from someone. You would have people using that command to scout an area and that makes it really OOC and unrealistic.
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drah

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2006, 10:14:02 am »
"You would have people using that command to scout an area"

Like you can't do that with "/target any" repeatedly!?!

Of course the commands can be abused, even as they currently are... but this would not add possibilities that don't already exist.  The only real difference is that it'd make your character easier to control during large battles.

When you've got 4-5 enemy combatants attacking you at once ... mouse-clicking is equivalent in real-life to pointing at your enemy briefly before you fight (would you point at an enemy combatant in real life before fighting... or just look at them and start swinging?) --- Clicking is also further complicated by the target getting lost so easily!!

If there was a "/target nearest enemy without going through walls" command.. or that idea was even viable.. I'd have suggested it instead.

Anyway, the "/target none", "/target any", "/attack 1" approach seems to work best for me right now... so I'll stick with that for the time being.

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@Socia.. I think I've still got a bit of a way to go before I get up to Alliva or Unar's standard. ;)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 10:38:30 am by drah »

Nikodemus

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2006, 03:23:37 pm »
omg, drah...
since you agree that current commands may be abused, why do you want to make it even simpler? Really, you can't advertise your idea without solving all their flaws, because otherwise your attempts are worthless. Really.

Next you say you don't like mouse clicking because you feel like you are pointing with a finger. Damn, where are you people getting these interpretations from? There are like infinity of them and no matter what you do, interface will be never more or less IC

Who said the mouseclicking isn't flawless currently? I pointed out it very clear that it need more than few simple fixes to be effective. Don't ignore posts of other people.




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drah

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2006, 05:57:24 pm »
Quote from: Nikodemus
omg, drah...
omg Nikodemus
Quote from: Nikodemus
since you agree that current commands may be abused, why do you want to make it even simpler? Really, you can't advertise your idea without solving all their flaws, because otherwise your attempts are worthless. Really.
I don't want to make abuse easier... I want to make warring against a bunch of opponents at close-quarters easier.

I was just pointing out that this command would barely add an ability to cheat that isn't already existing within the game.  I made a perfectly valid point... now you're trying to make it sound like I want to make cheating easier, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Quote from: Nikodemus
Next you say you don't like mouse clicking because you feel like you are pointing with a finger.

No, that's NOT the reason.... it was just a "realism" example for those that are coming up with such interpretations.

The reason I don't like clicking, as I must have explained about 2-3 times in this thread alone... is because you have to let go of the cursor keys momentarily.. which makes you a standing target, something that isn't good when there are several people attacking you at once.

I gave this specific example for those that were pointing out the "realism" aspect.  As I stated in a previous post, intuitivity and ergonomics are my reasons for this particular suggestion.

Quote from: Nikodemus
Who said the mouseclicking isn't flawless currently? I pointed out it very clear that it need more than few simple fixes to be effective. Don't ignore posts of other people.

I didn't ignore your post... I simply pointed out, that despite the points you make, it's still nowhere near as viable as shortcuts are... especially in the heat of battle... no matter how good and accurate the clicking becomes it'll never be a match for the speed of shortcuts.

Furthermore, I have mentioned several times my reasons for suggesting this feature.  In your last post... you have only extracted the "pointing at people" example and have totally missed out all the other points I've made.

...and then... you tell me "Don't Ignore Posts of Other People".

Hmmmm....  ::|
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 06:37:34 pm by drah »

Nikodemus

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2006, 07:22:54 pm »
...and then... you tell me "Don't Ignore Posts of Other People".
Maybe, but in such case you are doing exactly the same. You did nothing to prove mouseclicking to be such ineffective as you describe by proving the key arguments wrong. You are just going with your idea, discarding mouseclicking from the very start. There so many games where it is working right, that it is almost imposible to miss, although when i see some of the new games, there the mouslook and mouseclicking is done in very weird way, so maybe thats why you are negative as you played only these.
I don't know. You did NOT answer this and it is not the only thing. Because of that i stopped giving more as well as answering yours, because they were lacking answers for my previous arguments. So i got annoyed.
So maybe i just stop posting there.



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Garile

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2006, 02:45:59 pm »
Quote
Like you can't do that with "/target any" repeatedly!?!

No Darah you can't do that already with that command.

Why not becuase 1. that takes a whole lot longer and 2. you need to know that person is from the guild just by name.

With you're suggestion there might be just one oponent in the whole area you can target who is like twenty uses of the "/target any" command away who you might not even know by name and with one click you would know he is in the are and that he was on the oponentsside

Ofcourse the "/target any" combined with the "/who" command comes close with more work and time but that is no reason to implement something like this to make it a one click thing.

And personally I think the fact that clicking takes a while simulates the chaos of battle is a lot better argument comparing it to the unrealistic scouting such a command would add. Why is realistic to know in an instant. when fighting in a chaotic battle. if the guy standing to you with his back is an enemy or a friend?
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Idoru

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2006, 03:00:29 pm »
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when fighting in a chaotic battle. if the guy standing to you with his back is an enemy or a friend?

As I believe was mentioned earlier, in all battles, in all ages, in all countries, the combatants wear clothing that distinguishes themselves from the enemy.

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drah

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2006, 03:54:25 pm »
No Darah you can't do that already with that command.

Why not becuase 1. that takes a whole lot longer and 2. you need to know that person is from the guild just by name.

With you're suggestion there might be just one oponent in the whole area you can target who is like twenty uses of the "/target any" command away who you might not even know by name and with one click you would know he is in the are and that he was on the oponentsside

Ofcourse the "/target any" combined with the "/who" command comes close with more work and time but that is no reason to implement something like this to make it a one click thing.

And personally I think the fact that clicking takes a while simulates the chaos of battle is a lot better argument comparing it to the unrealistic scouting such a command would add. Why is realistic to know in an instant. when fighting in a chaotic battle. if the guy standing to you with his back is an enemy or a friend?

Using /who [opposing guild] ... then /target any ... destroys that initial argument... as you pointed out yourself!

As for realism in battles...

I've been in gang-fights IRL (and I mean real gang fights.. not some little chav slapping match.. i'm talking about fighting against tooled-up people.. outnumber.. with just bare-fists to rely on).. and in the chaos of battle... you glance.. you see the enemy... you swing... you don't stand still trying to point the person out... you don't run a mile away to figure out your targets before re-engaging in battle... you instinctively know who's on your side and who isn't and dive on the nearest person.

Also, targetting and accounting for path blockages is entirely possible (it's the same principal as 'clipping' in 3D graphics).  It could be handled client-side without ANY lag.

Also "implement something like this to make it a one click thing" -- To make close-combat war easier... not to make cheating (radar-style!!) easier.  But because you're concerned about that... how about this...

You could reduce the range for this particular command to stop it being used for cheating so easily. (approx twice the distance it takes to run at someone with a timed attack and one-hit kill 'em)

I'm also talking about this in the context of it being used on a heavily populated battlefield.  Not in the middle of town where people can hide in nooks and crannies.

Quite simply... it's more user-friendly, for the purposes of guild-war... than setting up loads of shortcuts with different people's names on.  and this would not add possibilities that "/who" and "/target any" don't already allow us.

A car can kill people... but it doesn't mean it should never have been invented.  This proposed idea could make it slightly easier to cheat... but it doesn't mean it should never be invented.

In addition to what Idoru said... most of our guild know who most of our guild are... if there are people on the battlefield we don't recognize... that's the enemy... it's as easy as that.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2006, 04:13:56 pm by drah »

Garile

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2006, 12:03:41 am »
Quote
As I believe was mentioned earlier, in all battles, in all ages, in all countries, the combatants wear clothing that distinguishes themselves from the enemy.

Ahhh ofcourse ALL battles in ALL ages and ALL countries. I mean everyone who actually thinks about that for one second knows that is just not the case. Just think of something like guerillia warfare were it is even the purpose NOT to be  recognized.
Quote
you glance.. you see the enemy... you swing...

and you can be wrong. I remember a serie on discovery where they examined a warriors corpse. Not sure what war he thought in but there was one amazing discovery that I do remember. He was killed by one of his own and they said this happened now and then.

Quote
Using /who [opposing guild] ... then /target any ... destroys that initial argument... as you pointed out yourself!

Does this destroy it? Exactly how long does it take to use that combo Drac in a populated area to know how many people there are? How long will you be standing there open for a suprise attack? How often would people use this in comparisen to the command you are suggesting when it's only a one click things instead of a twenty click thing where you have to remember the names yourself and need to check everyname from the any command yourself?

So can I use that combo the same way as the suggestion? The answer is still no.

A very limited range might solve the problem, but I would still rather see one that doesn't use shortcuts to be honest.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 12:33:00 am by Garile »
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drah

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2006, 10:09:42 am »
Just think of something like guerillia warfare were it is even the purpose NOT to be  recognized.
Medieval guerilla warfare?? - Well, I guess it's a possibility!?

He was killed by one of his own and they said this happened now and then.
In massive battles sure, but in a battle with roughly 8 people vs 8 people... much less likely to happen.  I accept your point though.. but still think the battle would have to be very big for us to get confused... but who knows... I guess it too is a possibility.

Does this destroy it? Exactly how long does it take to use that combo Drac in a populated area to know how many people there are? How long will you be standing there open for a suprise attack? How often would people use this in comparisen to the command you are suggesting when it's only a one click things instead of a twenty click thing where you have to remember the names yourself and need to check everyname from the any command yourself?

So can I use that combo the same way as the suggestion? The answer is still no.

A very limited range might solve the problem, but I would still rather see one that doesn't use shortcuts to be honest.

For the purposes of "OOCly scouting" ... You could still just do a "/who" and keep the 'system' window in view, then just hit your "/target any" shortcut until you find a matching name... and could do that while auto-running.  It's more awkward but still possible to do without making yourself vulnerable.

Having said that, I accept the points you are making and agree it would make it easier to cheat for those that wanted to abuse such a command.  I had hoped to resolve some of that with the limited-range suggestion... but...

Quote from: Garile
A very limited range might solve the problem, but I would still rather see one that doesn't use shortcuts to be honest.

which leaves us with clicking again! ;)

My issue with clicking is that it's very easy to lose your target in duels/battles/etc. and not just once.. or twice.. but many times... and all this jumping from keyboard to mouse tends to make you vulnerable too. - To be honest... if that was fixed somehow(!?) - then I'd have a lot more faith in clicking targets and wouldn't find it anywhere near as frustrating.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 10:18:41 am by drah »

Garile

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2006, 03:10:07 pm »
Well I agree that starting an attack should be easier by simply double clicking on someone for example.

Although making sure thhe server doesn't get lag everytime a large group is engaging would be priority to improve combat in my opinion ;)
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Nikodemus

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Re: GuildWar Improvements
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2006, 03:51:28 pm »
Well I agree that starting an attack should be easier by simply double clicking on someone for example.
You can do it already by clicking only once by setting custom options for right button
Although making sure thhe server doesn't get lag everytime a large group is engaging would be priority to improve combat in my opinion ;)
What ought be priority is not the combat itself, but its basic principles. It is eliminating lag effect and other delays there where something is basically done client side and server have only to check if it is possible. Client should do it instantly and show the effect. In case server would send packet with "no permission", it would be undone. Packets with such permissions should be resend few times in case they wouldn't reach the destination before the effect  is undone.
Client could predict some user behaviour and ask the server for information before the time it is actually needed. Like targetting, checking health, names.
While it is not really possible to do this once two fighters are running around and doing completly what they wish... there is huge room for progress for example in the inventory or skill window where everytime you click somewhere, the client is waiting for the permission from server, before it generate the visual effect. Like i said above.
If the computer isn't good and in effect you are experiencing 10 FPS or lower in some areas, don't make the interface behalve the same or worse. Where there is some checks to mark, they should be marked instantly, not with delay, even tiny, so that they won't act slowly maybe even making the sound effect slowed down, giving the sleepy effect. Or you click a button and it remains pressed for a bit like it was waiting for the sound effect to finish playing.

Fixing this, not only combat, mouseclicking in it, but also all other areas of the game will be greatly increased.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 03:56:06 pm by Nikodemus »



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