Potion Use and Other Tactics

[bilbous]

I started this thread to continue a subject that was increasingly off-topic and moving into an area that was inappropriate for its sub-forum. It is theoretical in nature and meant to provoke discussion. It is about the game as it is and not about how it will ideally end up.

If you must rely on potions and hit and run attacks, then it is my opinion that you are not strong enough to fight your target. 

I personally do not agree with this proposition for several reasons.

When I started my character I spent a whole lot of money buying healing potions so that I could fight rats and not have to wait five minutes heal between bouts. By this reckoning a starting character is too weak to fight rats. Now I could have begged for or saved up my money to buy a magic sword but I would rather fend for myself. I did eventually pay for a /30 sword but that when I was about ready to fight rogues under the temple.

Another reason I disagree with this idea is that it seems to mean that you should only fight things that cannot hurt you. If it doesn't hurt you there is no need for potions and no need to develop tactics for victory. This is not my idea of fun.  I like a challenge and there is no challenge here.

Now I don't advocate going toe to toe with an ulbernaut and using a bag full of potions to kill it. I suppose if you had to have that ulber drop for some quest it might be ok in that particular situation but that would be an exception to the rule. I don't see a problem with running though an ulbernaut and perhaps using two or three potions if I wait too long for my attack to come off and get hit by a couple claws. If you contend that it is an abuse of game mechanics I would remind you that those mechanics can just as easily abuse you. The devs work hard and I am not faulting them for anything, especially things beyond their control such as network latency. The fact remains that this is a consideration.

What is the point of having potions available if you can't use them?

[zanzibar]

We were talking about using potions to fight ulbernaughts, not rats. 

[neko kyouran]

What is the point of having potions available if you can't use them?

In that quote of Zanzi you listed, I believe he was referring to the idea that it's looked down upon when potions are used during the fight.  In reality, you're not going to be albe to drink down something all the while you're getting attacked.  (Unless you're just a godly fighter compared to them, kinda like being an experienced verteran of three wars, dancing around swings from a lowly rat, all the while, you're playing the fiddle. )

But for the most part, using potions while during the middle of a fight, is generaly frowned upon.  That isn't to say that you shouldn't be able to drink a few after the fight.  But there again, gulping down 20 potions in a moments notice, well, even to call something "magic", there are still limits.

I could be wrong though, I guess you'd have to wait for him to clarify himself.

[zanzibar]

@neko:  You are indeed correct about my statement.

[Nikodemus]

The use or not to use potions was discussed. The only problem with them is to not use them when you are being hit by your enemy, or drink 20 of them in 5 seconds. It just can't work.
Few solutions were given like animation for every potion you drink or illnes and opposite effect if you drink too many in some period of time.

There is not much argument against charging at enemy and run away after few blows to repeat the process, to have time to drink one or two potions. But from other side, if the NPCs wouldn't be dump and could run, i can't imagine myself running away, drinking potion and with enemy on my back.

[bilbous]

I think there is a distinction to be made between beastial mobs and humanoid mobs. The humanoid mobs such as rogues, mercenaries, bandits and gladiators can be credited with intelligence akin to what a player has. They are unlikely to have that amount of intelligence due to being programmatic constructs but theoretically they are no different than other "humans." The other type of mob cannot be considered to have the same amount of intelligence as a player as they are animals. There is a third type that has just been sighted that is a hybrid and that is a hybrid. A dark rogue is this kind of creature and it is harder to judge its intellectual abilities. It appears to be a normal rogue under the sway of some dark magics with unknown effects. To me it is a puppet-like being whose will is displaced by some other so that whatever native intellect it may have had has been subsumed in the others imperative. This makes it difficult to determine its abilities until the puppet-master is revealed. This analysis is also highly speculative as there is not much information available to judge by.

One problem I can see as being included in abusing the game mechanics is that there are seemingly only three movement rates currently implimented. There is player walk and run and there is mob movement rate. I am not certain if mob rate and walking rate are different.  Hopefully in the future this will change to allow such factors as agility and load to have a positive or negative effect and possibly for mobs the excitation level (berzerk mode or whatnot) but the premise of the thread is the game as it is. As it stands you can out-run any mob. My question is: is it an abuse of the game mechanics to run through a mob that is in your path such as the grendols on the bottom level of the arena or should you, perforce, fight them to go from one spoke to the next? Another question is is it less of an abuse if the mob is not agressive and is not triggered by proximity?

I have more questions such as how big does a potion have to be to have some magical effect and is a greater potion neccessarily larger than a standard potion or is the magic just stronger. It is unlikely that a potion would be the size of a gel-cap but it might be a dose is a tea spoon or a tablespoon. This is apparently not the case currently as the potion weighs half a unit, however, lesser and greater potions weigh the same which would imply that the portion is the same and it is the magic which increases. Also that half unit can be assumed to include the container of the magic liquid. This makes judging how long it would take to drink difficult. Another consideration that could be made is can doses be mixed? If so I could buy my 50 potions in a single container where a single dose would be a sip and multiple doses would be a chug.

I think that may be enough to chew on for the moment, I am sure more can be said but I would appreciate some discussion of these points before I go on.

[zanzibar]

I'm sorry bilbous but you're just plain wrong.  There is absolutely nothing realistic about drinking 50 potions all at once, while simultaneously running and hitting an ulbernaught with both hands.  The intelligence of your opponent has absolutely nothind to do with it - the laws of physics exist even if the mob is too stupid to understand them.

[bilbous]

Thank you for carefully examining my posts and fully responding to my points. I never said once anything about "drinking 50 potions all at once, while simultaneously running and hitting an ulbernaught with both hands" that was all you. The most potions I would drink at once is three, maybe four as that would fill me up from next to nothing. Two hits from an ulbernaut would take about two thirds of my hits so in reality I would likely only use two. The intelligence of my opponent goes towards how much time I would have between "strafing runs." Speaking of the laws of physics, which do you think would have better maneuverability a 200 pount man or a thousand+ pound ulbernaut? My money is on the man. It may well be that a beastial ulbernaut will have a heightend sense of smell and be able to locate his prey as to general direction but if it is obscured by intervening brush or land features its mental processes would not be quick enough to find the proper path immediately.

If you don't wish to consider the topic as framed please save your breath and allow others to do so or the thread to die.

[zanzibar]

So we aren't talking about hit and run attacks, but we are talking about "strafing runs"?  We're saying "I could buy my 50 potions in a single container where a single dose would be a sip and multiple doses would be a chug", but we aren't talking about drinking 50 potions at once?

[bilbous]

What possible use would there be in drinking 50 potions at once? It would be a total waste of at least 45 potions as nobody has that many hit points. If you were to go toe to toe with an ulbernaut you might use that many in a battle. That would certainly be unrealistic in the manner that you mention. Tell me how would you realistically go about killing an elephant with just a sword without taking advantage of your ability to maneuver and to fit in places the elephant cannot. If a rogue elephant was menacing your family and it was up to you to stop it would you not try? Of course in the game your options are more limited.

I am trying to have a discussion about general potion use and legitimate human tactics, you keep trying to reframe the discussion into your own specific terms.  Would it have made you feel better if I had said "three uses are a gulp?" Certainly a gulp is bigger than a sip as well as less than a chug.

[zanzibar]

I'm trying to understand your post but it's boggling my mind.  What does this have to do with the original topic?

[Goldir]

My thoughts on this subject are more along the line of "If you have to fight, fight to win".  What purpose would the potions even have for existing if it wasn't for use during combat?  They don't change your appearance.  They don't help you do crafting, or spellcasting (with the exception of one type).  If you have a way to give yourself an advantage in combat, and it doesn't involve exploiting a bug, use it!!  For those who want to be "honorable" and only have "fair" fights, make sure you clarify that with your opponent beforehand.  As for monster hunting, if some new guy takes 30 Light Red Potions and smacks an Ulbernaut around, good for him!  The only caveat I would put on that is that the potions should probably cost more, because going from zero to hero for only 240 tria is a bit excessive.

[Under the moon]

No one has stated just how large the potions are. Given the amount you can carry, logically they would have to be rather small. Given the artwork in the game for them, perfume bottle size would be about right. Plus, for the potions to have the 'instant' effect that they do, they would have to be absorbed into the body very rapidly, so would not remain long in the stomach, if they even get that far before vaporizing into the mouth and throat. It would not be unrealistic for a hardened fighter to pop the top off a vial and down it in less than a second. Taking this into acount, one could drink 50 with ease in the course of a longer fight, if not instantly.

HOWEVER, you should not be able to easily drink any potions with a sword or axe in both hands.

You must also take into account that I am against the instant potion drinking in battle thing. But that does not mean it can not be done.

[Nikodemus]

try to drink this:

in 10 seconds ;P
I will admire anyone who manage this !

Besides after drinking potion which restore 50HP its should be happening with 1-5HP a second.

[bilbous]

I am glad to see this getting some consideration. I certainly agree that potion use shouldn't be possible with two weapons or a weapon and a shield larger than a buckler. One problem with the system as it is now is that if you don't have both hands full your left hand does a melee attack anyway. This means that there is little point to leaving a hand free for other purposes for example drinking a potion. Your hand never misses an attack. I think that in order to do melee attacks you should be required to have both hands empty, that's just me, others may differ. It might be considered more appropriate to use potions if it was possible to have a hand not doing an attack.
I do not know how shields work as I have never used them but I presume they do a block instead of an attack but in any event count as doing an action with that hand.

I think multiple potion use could logically be discouraged by making subsequent uses less effective. Also there could be a limit on the number of doses effective for any particular hit. These two effects could be combined so that you could use a maximum of three potions for any hit and the second one would be two thirds as effective as the first and the third only one third as effective as the first potion.  You could also have a second type of potion that would affect previous hits and the previously mentioned potion only affect the most recent hit. Perhaps the type that effects previous hits could be in the form of a salve that requires the user to sit down to apply.

As far as activation time goes I believe potions to be magical in nature with the liquid being the delivery system and I see no reason for them to take time to activate. Now alchemical infusions, all natural ingredients -- no magic involved -- would be a different thing and would work over time.