Author Topic: Gold vs. Steel  (Read 4709 times)

Stonn

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2006, 09:39:20 pm »
I've had this issue of the Yliakum economy on my mind for awhile now. When a looted sword sells for 150K-500k tria, and people buy two, somthing is off IMO. Granted, that's for some of the best weapons in the game, but those figures are absurd given the table shown in the PS economy link. I didn't play PS when platinum was in game, but holy Talad, I can't even imagine what the inflation was like back then. I won't argue what gold or plat or salt should be worth in the stalagtite, but I think gold is just too easy to obtain.

Let me get away from the market value of looted weapons. When the option is to spend hours (days, weeks?) to kill at the minimum 20 rats (more realistically 30-50) and go through the hassle of selling the hides and parts for you first short sword, or spend a fraction of the time to go dig one gold ore and sell it at the same shop you get the sword, the choice is obvious. Granted, exp awarded is different and you have to get the pickaxe and mining skill blah blah, but my point is, everyone ends up a miner, or they are frustratingly poor vs the common citizen of Yliakum in their beginning stages.

I think gold should be made much much much much much much much much MUCH[/b] harder to mine. Show me a player in PS who isn't a high-level killing/looting machine that doesn't have a gold-dust covered pickaxe in their bag and I'll change my tune. Every gold ore dug out of the ground should be a big deal. Right now, it's a mundane task like searching vending machines for spare change.

Kelod

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2006, 10:05:39 pm »
I also agree that the economy is unbalanced.  I remember a few weeks ago when someone shouted in auction that they were buying steel stock so I offered them one for 4k tria thinking that was a fair price.  About 5 people chewed me out saying I was trying to rip off a new guy.  I was thinking that mining the 10 ore for a steel stock plus the levels of training required and time that it takes made it AT LEAST worth the equivalent of 10 gold ore (2400 tria).  They said the norm was 500 - 1000 tria... ridiculous.

neko kyouran

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2006, 11:15:19 pm »
I remember the days when it were just a handful of miners. Change a little number in the database from 2 to 240 and look what happens.   :whistling:

Nikodemus

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2006, 11:43:07 pm »
Kelod, how much you spent on your training doesn't matter at all. The prices are set not by what you need, but what everybody need. If they tell you 500-1000 tria, it is because someone else sell with such price and it is profitable. So i suppose it is something wrong with you rather with the price.
From other side i played with no crafting at all and i can't be even sure if gold ore is still worth 6 tria. What you say about 2,4k tria or 500-1000 sounds ridiculus to me.
Although even if, i still thing killing gladiators is best source of tria. And it is what is completly unexplanable and what is breaking economy.



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Under the moon

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2006, 01:09:19 am »
Just as a side note, it seems none of the coins used in the game are actually made of gold, but some are made out of steel.

Stonn

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2006, 02:34:07 am »
Kelod, how much you spent on your training doesn't matter at all. The prices are set not by what you need, but what everybody need. If they tell you 500-1000 tria, it is because someone else sell with such price and it is profitable. So i suppose it is something wrong with you rather with the price. From other side i played with no crafting at all and i can't be even sure if gold ore is still worth 6 tria. What you say about 2,4k tria or 500-1000 sounds ridiculus to me.

I RP a metallurgist myself, and as it stands there really is no way to "make a living" out of the skill by being a steel stock manufacturer. A labor of love, it is. Even charging 1000 tria for two basic stocks intended for a quest that gets a book worth a couple hundred tria upon resale is messed up I think. I too tried to rationalize extreme prices for standard stock comparing it to time I could spend mining gold, but those two shouldn't even be related, again, in my opinion. I know that that guy who wants to buy steel that equates to two hours of my Mining 20 and Metallurgy 10 time can go out with his new mining skill and do so after five minutes of jabbing a hotkey in the gold mine.

One might argue you could hire someone to mine for you, saving time. Well, that's romantic to think of, but at what, 200ish tria per ore? They will immediately head to the gold mines if you offer less. I know. I've tried. So 10 ores, about 2000 tria to obtain, to sell for hundreds in stock form, or face public jeering for trying to make a profit. Again, this wouldn't be an issue if mining gold was considerably more difficult than mining iron ore. As it is, it's a perfect setup to ensure all blacksmiths will always have to make their own stocks. Nobody wants to do time consuming, mindless tasks like mining and smelting when it results in no meaningful exp or pps, an object that is worth nothing in and of itself, only to watch someone else turn it into a cool weapon that sells for thousands. Might as well have made blacksmith and metallurgy one skill after all. Even if metallurgy skill advances, it will not change the process of how stocks and 240tria gold ore are obtained, and the lopsided reward/effort issue at hand. People will just move onto smelting gold ore into stocks worth 10 times more and never look back at that steel phase of their careers.

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...Although even if, i still thing killing gladiators is best source of tria. And it is what is completly unexplanable and what is breaking economy.

If I understand what you've said correctly, then I have to disagree. I think putting yourself out in battle to potentially face your death should be rewarded with spoils of war like valuable weapons worth thousands. I think the problem is not the loot, but that there are ways to do battle and not face death and still get super loot. Then you get campers complaining about apples and then getting iron axes and sw whatevers from the same 1pp weaponless Enki mercenary or a gutless Kran gladiator. I know people will hate this, but make the good loot come from tough brigands that could flay the ordinary swordsman and not from silly rogues standing on barrels. When you get a weapon so good (and valuable) you can't even use it, your life should have been on the line for that prize. Can't say that's been the case for this non-fighting Kran.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 02:41:15 am by Stonn »

bilbous

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2006, 03:48:57 am »
I would like to add one thing I find most peculiar and that is if you are smelting for the purpose of selling the result to npc's it is far more profitable to sell 10 ingots than it is to sell one stock. At least it was the last time I did any smelting.

Hadfael

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2006, 04:47:40 am »
Circles are made of gold.

And IRL in the real economy (a field in wish I admit to be a complete idiot) Fort Knox is know to store the US stocks of bananas.
The truffe (a mushroom) values more than gold for the same weight. The value of an item|ore|material established on a supply/demand market can not be the base of an economy.
May Salt be very valuable (as vital IRL...this not being proven in PS) If you assume it's found in the stone labyrinths, the supply will vary other time depending on the threats in this area.
But being an idiot, this was only my 1 steel coin thought. I keep my search for valuable bananas...see you around.

Einnol

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2006, 07:33:50 pm »
I would like to add one thing I find most peculiar and that is if you are smelting for the purpose of selling the result to npc's it is far more profitable to sell 10 ingots than it is to sell one stock. At least it was the last time I did any smelting.

Heck, it is more profitable to sell raw iron ore than it is to sell stocks, (iron or steel) at least as far as selling them to Harnquist anyway.  Iron and steel stocks should be worth a little more than twice what they are now for it to make any sense to manufacture them.  But, even at the current "rip-off" price for the stock, I wonder how Harnquist makes a profit crafting and selling weapons.  Seems to me that the income he gets from training is to make up for the losses incurred in his weapon business.   ;D

But, these are all just issues of balancing which will be corrected in time, hopefully.  In the meantime, all we can do is poke it with a big stick and wait it out as we go thru the cycle of features, bug fixes, and balancing.

Under the moon

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2006, 08:29:43 pm »
Please stop stating your opinions as fact. You obviously do not understand how the system of currency works. Money is based on the barter system. As in the barter system, it is not at a constant value with what you can trade it for. Gold is no exception. Gold in not a constant in our own system, as its value goes up and down. This makes the money worth more and less. The fact that gold is the base of today’s system makes no difference. Money based on a variable base stock will go up and down, and does. There is NO stock in existence that has a set and unchanging value.

Despite what you -think-, salt was used extensively as a base of economies in ancient, and not so ancient times. It is used TO THIS DAY as the base of currency in some African countries, and even used as money itself. Gold, silver, and copper may have been the metal of choice for making higher valued coins eventually, but their actual -worth- was originally BASED on salt.

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Marco Polo writes about salt as if it were a treasure as precious as gold.... "KAIN-du is a Chinese pro  vince...where the money or currency they make use of, is thus prepared: their gold is formed into small rods and being cut to certain lengths , passes according to its weight without any stamp......This is their greater money. The smaller [money] is of the following description...".in this country there are salt springs from which they manufacture salt by boiling it in small pans. When the water has boiled for an hour it becomes a kind of paste which is formed into cakes of the value of twopence each. These, flat on the lower, and convex on the upper side, are placed upon hot tiles near a fire in order to dry and harden. On these latter species of money , the stamp of the Grand Khan is impressed, and cannot be impressed by any other than its own officers. When these are carried to little frequented parts they obtain a 'saggio' of gold for sixty, fifty or even forty salt cakes....the further removed from the towns....."

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The early Romans used salt as money, (salarium = salt money or salt rations) though this practice was short lived.

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In ancient times salt was so valuable that it was used for money. In fact our modern word salary is derived from it. The Latin word salarium means “salt money” and referred to the allowance of salt that was paid to Roman soldiers. Even today in some parts of the world salt is one of the most prized commodities.

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Early trade routes and many of the first roads were established for transporting salt. Many ancient civilizations levied taxes on salt. Salt was considered so precious that it was traded ounce for ounce for gold. In ancient China, coins were made of salt. In the Mediterranean regions, salt cakes were used as money. Ancient cities such as Genoa, Pisa, and Venice became salt market centers.

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The worth of Sodium Chloride, or "common salt", as it became known, as an exchanged value for other essential commodities, such as food, fuel, luxuries or slaves, has a yet to be determined, important role in state finances and in the origin of money.

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Metal was not the only material used as a barter money. Salt was also frequently mentioned as an important, such commodity, particularly as a topic of fundamental personal consequence when related to individual income...

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Once introduced and accepted, the weight of a coin , was confirmed by setting a stamp or a 'hallmark' [a salt mark ; 'hal' Greek: salt] upon every coin to relieve one from the trouble of check weighing it. The stamp impressed upon the coin, was an indication of quality and finally a guarantee of the value it represented. It was a similar concept, to the stamps impressed on salt cakes, and still used in this century, in central Africa as a means of payment . It initially related specifically to the coin's weight and probably to an equivalent weight of salt, rather than to its intrinsic value. Roman accounting began with copper coins, and gold was introduced only 100 years after the death of Alexander. Thus the choice of the material used only became a matter of availability and longetivity.

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...in the Middle Ages they also minted coins which were issued for services done or goods delivered to the town for the purchase and sale of their salt. The coins were also chartered as legal currency for duty payments and tolls on the local roads, bridges and gates. They became known as the 'coins' of Halle or 'Heller' money , derived from an old German word for salt - 'Halle' . Because of its local purchasing power, this currency was highly rated in most German markets, although its value frequently changed according to supply and demand.

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Although the historical links with the metal trade are clearly evident, salt has not been used as money in the sense that is generally accepted or understood today. Perhaps anlaysing the historical connection and its evolution would help us to appreciate the role of money in modern economies. Clearly the ability to monopolise the supply of salt compared with the other critical physiological necessaties of life eg; water to drink, air to breathe and proteins to eat, gave any party the authority to control this means of exchange

To break it down in simple terms a unit of money is worth nothing in itself until a governing body says it is worth a certain unit of something else. Even in medieval times, that second unit was often salt. Fact.

Do I say to make coins out of salt? No. You inferred that on your own. The gem system in use now is fine. But it should not be based on the value of gold. Gold is not rare in the least in PS, so makes a bad base for  currency. It would be better, AND more unique in a game that touts itself on its uniqueness, if the unit money was based on was salt, or even square units of land. See this link: http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/03/061303.asp

And it is uncertain to me if the Circle is actually made out of gold. It is described as “golden”, not gold. Golden in this form may just indicate it’s color, not what it is made of. This is further supported by the description of the other coins.

The "Hexa" has a value of 10 Tria; it's made of another crystal mineral, light blue in color, and has the shape of a hexagon. The red "Octa" is worth 50 Tria, or 5 Hexa. The golden "Circle" is worth 250 Tria, or 25 Hexa.

In face of how they are described, I am forced to assume the ‘golden’ circle is not made of gold, but an alloy like the others that happens to be gold in color. Not to mention that Silver coins are worth more than the Circle.

You want to argue with me, you had better bring more than your opinions to the table.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 08:32:58 pm by Under the moon »

Gentar

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2006, 09:07:27 pm »
if anything i think that gold is far too easy to mine for the payout. Its the ore you mine when your first learning so ti shouldnt be worth much at all. Back when it sold for 8 or something may have been a little low but what its at now is ridiculous. I say the introduction of ores such as tin and copper could be added for beginners mining and gold ore should be far more difficult. Even better would be the introduction of original Planeshift-thought up ores. Im sure that all of the things ive mentioned are already in plan to be implmented so there isnt much point in stating the case.

Kelod

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2006, 10:25:43 am »
Kelod, how much you spent on your training doesn't matter at all. The prices are set not by what you need, but what everybody need. If they tell you 500-1000 tria, it is because someone else sell with such price and it is profitable. So i suppose it is something wrong with you rather with the price.
From other side i played with no crafting at all and i can't be even sure if gold ore is still worth 6 tria. What you say about 2,4k tria or 500-1000 sounds ridiculus to me.
Although even if, i still thing killing gladiators is best source of tria. And it is what is completly unexplanable and what is breaking economy.

Gold ore sells for 240 tria a piece... 10 gold ore is 2400... it takes 10 ore to make 1 stock, therefore it should be worth atleast 2400 tria

Another thing... there is something wrong with me because I have an opinion?!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 10:29:51 am by Kelod »

Nikodemus

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2006, 01:41:15 pm »
Gold ore sells for 240 tria a piece... 10 gold ore is 2400... it takes 10 ore to make 1 stock, therefore it should be worth atleast 2400 tria

Another thing... there is something wrong with me because I have an opinion?!
Not what i wrote ;P And to add, if there is something wrong with you, it is you did not explained the problem from the very base, like you forgot to mention ore price. ;) And there is no reason to get angry. It is no offence at all, because othewise i would have to offed eveyone on earth, including me ;>

But when these prices are like that at NPCs, I understand what you mean that something is broken.

Facts:
gold is too common for its price
game is not yet developed enough and it lacks areas where gold may be used

Possible solutions:
-very limited amount of gold mines, mines managed by a third party which don't let too many people dig it. Probably the owning company, which hire miners. (probably under some PS very custom rules)
-develop prospecting skill (along with some needed tools or not) and make most miners to look for the resourcess randomly hidden on some areas. This way amount of digged ores may be balanced.



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Under the moon

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2006, 04:04:39 pm »
I am of the mind that main mines should be owned by either guilds (player or NPC) or the government. There could be a system of politics and power to decide what guild has the rights to what mines for how long. The guild in charge would then have the rights to limit, charge, or even ban others from using their mine. The mines would have to be kept up, for fear of cave-ns. Things like this would give guilds and actual purpose, which they do not right now. Now, panhandling the rivers is a different story, as the rights to rivers is free.

As for making the mines themselves, could that not be done with a simple 'building' like Kadas with portals (or whatever they are called) to enter, and set it in the side of a hill? Duplicate that fifty times, and vary the mine contents and amounts, and you then have an entire system of mines with much more realism that we have now.

Ah yes, and it has been confirmed to me that Circles are made out of a gold colored gem, not gold itself. So all the gold must be stockpiled somewhere.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 04:08:44 pm by Under the moon »

Kerol

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Re: Gold vs. Steel
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2006, 06:38:18 pm »
I feel a little bit ignored.

I SAID PLEASE READ THIS.

And as you are supposedly all too dumb to click a link I will have to quote.

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Currency

Trading is mainly done with coins, though barter and credit letters are also available. A currency mint on the second level produces coins for all of Yliakum. Since it's a closed society, the minters only have two jobs: repair broken coins and replace the ones that leave the city or get lost somehow.

Trias

"Trias" are the best coins and the main currency. They are made of alloy, metals, or crystals that are resistant to corrosion and oxidation, which allows the Nolthrirs to take them under water, increasing their worth as a cross-race currency. The crystal mineral can easily be found in the mines and is transparent or light green in color. Magically forging the crystals produces a perfect triangle with rounded-off edges. Coins made out of steel are worth much less (1/10 of a Tria), which makes them more popular among the poor.

Other Coins

The "Hexa" has a value of 10 Tria; it's made of another crystal mineral, light blue in color, and has the shape of a hexagon. The red "Octa" is worth 50 Tria, or 5 Hexa. The golden "Circle" is worth 250 Tria, or 25 Hexa.

I like to point out the "golden".
I other news (<- this is also a link):
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However, their unusual blood gives them a harmful sensitivity to precious metals. They prefer not to use gold, silver or platinum coins: contact with such metals provokes a skin rash.
.

Thank you for your attention. You now may continue to argue.


Edit:
Oh, and as you probably won't get what I wanted to say:
Some coins actually contain gold. But it doesn't matter how precious the materials are themselves as they are minted MAGICALLY - which is about the same as printing paper money that is supposed not to be fakeable as well. And this said, it DOESN'T really matter what materials tria are made of as they are made in a way that makes them precious by the PROCESS and NOT the material.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 06:42:45 pm by Kerol »


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