Now, I can truly die.

[Xordan]

* Datruth smiles

That was a great post Xordan, i liked it.

So the randomness of the universe as quantom Mechanics is where our Thoughts come from?

Interesting.... Now....

When I say Eiffel..... do you think Tower?

How is it that i am able to dictate your thoughts, when they are so random.

How is it anyone is able to dictate thoughts, if they be so random.

I can't allow Quantom mechanics to account for my thought, even if it's being shown to be fairly organised or appear so at times.

Thoughts and where they come from, are great questions.

As for chaos Theory, I believe it's all in choice, From the choices you make consequences arise.

But the choice is still there made by you.

~~Datruth

Thoughts don't have to be random. Quantum mechanics isn't a description of randomness, it just has that as a property. Quantum computers (what fundamentals we have of them anyway) wouldn't be possible if everything was random. Consciousness might have randomness as a property too, but it doesn't rule the mind, and I didn't say that our thoughts come from just from randomness. Most of the mind is unconscious, and I think we have little control over that. You say Eiffel, and the neurons fire in my brain, search my memory for the closest relation to Eiffel and come back with Eiffel Tower. That's just proof of mechanics. Is that relation even a property of consciousness? I think most of it isn't. The mind is a mix of the mechanical (unconscious) and the consciousness on top, it's only the consciousness (free will) which I think stems from some quantum aspect, however tiny that may be.

On computer terms, say that the free will part is the user sending requests to the computer, and the computer is the unconscious bit churning away to output the request. Thoughts are just a request and an output Thinking is a series of conscious requests for output. The source of the request comes from what I said my definition of consciousness is; just an effect of quantum stuff upon (or even from) complexity.

[eldoth_terevan]

Its interesting about free will. Let us say that I have a subconscious preference for double returns after sentences when composing text messages. I have a choice in that I can put a single or double return after a sentence. But I always choose to put two returns after a sentence because that is my preference. Is that really free will, or do our preferences in life bind us to predetermined outcomes while still giving us the impression that we are making free choices?

[Datruth]

Its interesting about free will. Let us say that I have a subconscious preference for double returns after sentences when composing text messages. I have a choice in that I can put a single or double return after a sentence. But I always choose to put two returns after a sentence because that is my preference. Is that really free will, or do our preferences in life bind us to predetermined outcomes while still giving us the impression that we are making free choices?

The ability to question Free will shows it's working.

And if no choice in any matter by us is considered free, THAN we need to release all inmates in jail now.

Because they are only a circumstance of a problem, which is rooted in the absense of free will.

~~Datruth

Anyone who thinks that way needs to say Hello to a Murderer, and understand the Murderer had a choice.

[Xordan]

Its interesting about free will. Let us say that I have a subconscious preference for double returns after sentences when composing text messages. I have a choice in that I can put a single or double return after a sentence. But I always choose to put two returns after a sentence because that is my preference. Is that really free will, or do our preferences in life bind us to predetermined outcomes while still giving us the impression that we are making free choices?

I think that counts as free will still, assuming that we have free will at all. At least, you do have the ability to stop and say "I want to use a single return", even if mechanically you tend to use a double return. Datruth highlights a major problem that we would have if it were discovered that we don't have any free will.... do we say that criminals couldn't be held responsible for their actions? Let's hope this isn't the case and that Einstein was wrong on this one .

[emeraldfool]

Belief is existance. Belief makes things exist.

This is your world. Nothing exists unless you believe in it. Over a thousand years ago the world was flat. Now it's round. Why? At some point, somebody decided the world was round, believed it, and spread that belief. The belief spread and spread until that belief became yours. So now your world is round.

You can't prove I exist. I could be a figment of your imagination, or a complex computer program, or a dream. The only thing is that I tell you I exist, and you believe me. And so I do.

Take it like this: I have a friend named Barry. Until you read this sentence, he didn't exist. He knew he existed, I knew he existed, but you didn't, and so he didn't exist.


(As you can see, my belief-system is a little hard to explain... )

[Ithorius]

Belief is existance. Belief makes things exist.

This is your world. Nothing exists unless you believe in it. Over a thousand years ago the world was flat. Now it's round. Why? At some point, somebody decided the world was round, believed it, and spread that belief. The belief spread and spread until that belief became yours. So now your world is round.

You can't prove I exist. I could be a figment of your imagination, or a complex computer program, or a dream. The only thing is that I tell you I exist, and you believe me. And so I do.

Take it like this: I have a friend named Barry. Until you read this sentence, he didn't exist. He knew he existed, I knew he existed, but you didn't, and so he didn't exist.


(As you can see, my belief-system is a little hard to explain... )

Just a side not eon your starting phrase there, if you took someone from the third world country who lets say for scenerio's sake, had never seen a lightbulb, who believed light in itself was god... And you showed him your fridge, and told him that when you opened it it would light up... He probaly wouldn't believe you...

So if you walk away, and he opens that fridge not believing that the light will come on, will the light not come on?...

Riiiight, believing makes things exist... nice one plato.

[Radiant Memphis]

* Radiant Memphis looks at how the thread has manifested and mutated from a simple few words . Good job

Zani,   you only had to make one post this time.

[eldoth_terevan]

Eldoth smiles at Datruth and Xordan, and goes back to wondering how he can prove that the box really has a cat in it...

[zanzibar]

* Radiant Memphis looks at how the thread has manifested and mutated from a simple few words . Good job

Zani,   you only had to make one post this time.

Would you care to elaborate on your idiotic remark?  I'm searching it for any valid content but I must be too stupid to see it.

[bilbous]

* Radiant Memphis looks at how the thread has manifested and mutated from a simple few words . Good job

Zani,   you only had to make one post this time.

Would you care to elaborate on your idiotic remark?  I'm searching it for any valid content but I must be too stupid to see it.

OOOHHH! Pick Me Monty! I know what he meant!

He meant your original post was meaningless fluff (my evaluation) but it generated discussion.

Oh, and love is a chemical imbalance that has no greater meaning. Abstract ideas are just that, abstract and have no basis in reality.

I think we are a bunch of grey blobs, which are telepathically linked, floating in an endless void. The world that we think we see is just the result of mass delusion.

Step right up! Get yer existentialism here!

[emeraldfool]

* Radiant Memphis looks at how the thread has manifested and mutated from a simple few words . Good job

Zani,   you only had to make one post this time.

Would you care to elaborate on your idiotic remark?  I'm searching it for any valid content but I must be too stupid to see it.

OOOHHH! Pick Me Monty! I know what he meant!

He meant your original post was meaningless fluff (my evaluation) but it generated discussion.

Oh, and love is a chemical imbalance that has no greater meaning. Abstract ideas are just that, abstract and have no basis in reality.

I think we are a bunch of grey blobs, which are telepathically linked, floating in an endless void. The world that we think we see is just the result of mass delusion.

Step right up! Get yer existentialism here!

You obviously don't, otherwise we would all be grey blobs. Duh.
If you really thought you are a grey blob, and that life is just your super-powered imagination, why don't you kill yourself? I mean, it's not like you can't imagine some other life for yourself. Maybe you could be a millionaire in the next dream...
But you won't, because that's not what you believe.

Belief is existance. Belief makes things exist.

Just a side not eon your starting phrase there, if you took someone from the third world country who lets say for scenerio's sake, had never seen a lightbulb, who believed light in itself was god... And you showed him your fridge, and told him that when you opened it it would light up... He probaly wouldn't believe you...

So if you walk away, and he opens that fridge not believing that the light will come on, will the light not come on?...

Riiiight, believing makes things exist... nice one plato.

No... once you tell him that it would light up, the belief is there, regardless of what he originally believed. The fact that he opens the fridge to check if there really is a light inside there means he's already starting to believe.

Now, if he really didn't believe there was a light inside the fridge, he would think checking that there is to be completely futile (the same way you don't check to make sure there's not a monster living in your television), which would mean the light wouldn't be there.

See how that works? (You see, it's one of those things that's impossible to disprove...)

[Ithorius]

okay suppose a child believes theres a monster in his closet, and there is actually a rattelsnake, so he calls for his father, his father KNOWS, theres nothing there, he opens the door believeing there wont be anything in there, why does he open it? to show the child theres nothing there... does that mean the rattelsnake would.... disappear?


nope...

things exist with or without our concent, like it or not, we have no control over what will be behind the next door we open, because whats there is there, and believing other wise wont change it.

[emeraldfool]

okay suppose a child believes theres a monster in his closet, and there is actually a rattelsnake, so he calls for his father, his father KNOWS, theres nothing there, he opens the door believeing there wont be anything in there, why does he open it? to show the child theres nothing there... does that mean the rattelsnake would.... disappear?


nope...

things exist with or without our concent, like it or not, we have no control over what will be behind the next door we open, because whats there is there, and believing other wise wont change it.

But, you see, that's my next point. 'Belief' isn't just believing in a certain concept, be it religion or whether or not there's a monster in the closet. Belief is also believing your senses.
Your eyes see a rattlesnake. Your ears hear a rattlesnake. Your skin feels the rattlesnake. Your nose smells the rattlesnake.
And so you believe it exists

If you were blind, deaf, numb, and anosmic - that is, you had no way of perceiving, and thus believing - would the rattlesnake really exist?

[Ithorius]

yes, you'ed just be oblivious to it, it would exist because if you tripped and fell on one and it bite you, and you died... what would they say  at the outopsy(sp??)

truth is, being oblivious to something doesn't make it any less real.

[emeraldfool]

yes, you'ed just be oblivious to it, it would exist because if you tripped and fell on one and it bite you, and you died... what would they say  at the outopsy(sp??)

truth is, being oblivious to something doesn't make it any less real.

Of course it does. When was the last time you were blind deaf numb and anosmic and got attacked by a rattlesnake? Sure, you might see a blind, deaf, numb, anosmic guy get killed by a rattlesnake, but that's only because you believe that the rattlesnake will kill that guy.

It doesn't just apply to objects existing either. If you believe that God influences everything, then God will influence everything, regardless of what other people might tell you. If you stop believing in God, then he stops existing, and suddenly everything that you thought was divine will is just coincidence. Because you changed your belief, you've changed the nature of reality.

Other people might have different beliefs than yours, but they are automatically wrong, because you believe they're wrong.