Animals in PS

[Watcher]

Let us assume for a second that the Humans are from our Earth, if that was true then they would most likely have arrived in normadic groups suggesting that they would carry mainly useful animals and very little (if any) sea creatures. Most of their animals would have been of some use if only as pets, this suggests that the Earth creatures would only be that of either common pet usage or of food/haulage use eliminating some creatures.

[Akaye]

This is very disappointing. I was hoping that there'd at least be some reasoning why things are / are not put in.

  Thats funny because in the whole of all your posts I didn't see that question once.

@Everyone: What I don't understand is why it is so hard for people to get that these questions aren't ready to be answered because the game is under construction. There are no answers to give. When the animals of planeshift begin to get implimented in the game then I think that is the more the appropriate time to bring this up. For now voicing your point of view might help the dev's with some decisions on what should and shouldn't be implimented and what players seem to like vs dislike.

Also one thing I would like to point out, no one has the authority to tell another player they are a bad role-player. As far as I know we are all learning to RP and there is definitely room for mistakes. None of us are that good at role-play that when we give advice that is what the other player must follow. Everyone is different, so role-play will vary between players. If it doesn't fit your role-play style then that doesn't nessesarly mean the other player is doing something wrong.

[Nikodemus]

@Everyone: What I don't understand is why it is so hard for people to get that these questions aren't ready to be answered because the game is under construction. There are no answers to give. When the animals of planeshift begin to get implimented in the game then I think that is the more the appropriate time to bring this up. For now voicing your point of view might help the dev's with some decisions on what should and shouldn't be implimented and what players seem to like vs dislike.

Actually, if you have reed carefully, you would see, that we mentioned at least few times a tefusang, which is animal and which is in game, but it isn't exactly valid animal. This topic gives reason why and some simple propositions.

Also one thing I would like to point out, no one has the authority to tell another player they are a bad role-player. As far as I know we are all learning to RP and there is definitely room for mistakes. None of us are that good at role-play that when we give advice that is what the other player must follow. Everyone is different, so role-play will vary between players. If it doesn't fit your role-play style then that doesn't nessesarly mean the other player is doing something wrong.

the fact people want to RP in different ways, doesn't mean they should do it. We already have problems with people who are going outside setting and dont care about consistence of the world around them. They don't realise the can't disapare from other people RP, these people who try to be in setting and who can't ignore this what they other groups do. While there are many kinds of RP, there arent many which are valid. And i feel that i'm allowed to poit it out to people who don't get it, because i want to have valid RP experience too, in a game where things should be this way.

[Seytra]

Thats funny because in the whole of all your posts I didn't see that question once.

It's not funny at all. And yes, up until now I was under the impression that there actually was a well-thought out grand scheme behind PS. One that one can rely upon, and that the things that are implemented, or at least the things that are stated on the mainsite, in the settings section, are here to stay, and that in turn one can safely extrapolate from that.
BTW, I have raised this question before, twice, and was each time given acceptable reason to assume that indeed it was safe.

Also one thing I would like to point out, no one has the authority to tell another player they are a bad role-player. As far as I know we are all learning to RP and there is definitely room for mistakes. None of us are that good at role-play that when we give advice that is what the other player must follow. Everyone is different, so role-play will vary between players. If it doesn't fit your role-play style then that doesn't nessesarly mean the other player is doing something wrong.

Fine, pretend that all my posts start with "IMO" or "IMNSHO" as appropriate, then. I think that (IMO, obviously) there in fact are some basics to RP that objectively make one a bad RPer, like ignoring the settings, mixing IC and OOC, lack of consistency, godmoding, using 1337, taking control of other's chars and such. And in fact these are the things that I base my judgement on. The other cases mainly consist of "Deal with it"- type players and other things that may be argued to be more "RP style" than quality, but nontheless are of influence to the RP experience.
Yes, everyone makes mistakes, and I myself have been guilty of (albeit comparatively light) "deal with it"-style RP-ing in the beginning. Still, this doesn't mean that there is no reason to (try to) improve, or that noone, not even the 1337 PL d00d from hell, can be called "bad RPer". IMO, and FAICT objectively, there are "good" RPers and there are "bad" ones. Trying to say otherwise is an attempt to declare everyone equal which isn't the case, as you stated yourself.

Therefore, if someone's idea of "RP" differs so greatly from the general concept of "RP" that it is something else, then how can you justify not calling them "bad RPer"? Sounds like political correct "never say anything bad about anyone"- newspeak to me that eliminates all meaning.

Nikodemus phrased it pretty well: of all possible kinds of RP (following your definition, not mine), there are only very few that comply to PS's goal of creating a consistent world. Therefore, what I call "bad RP" can be redefined "invalid RP in the PS sense" if need be. However, that doesn't mean that it's desirable to have in PS. As a GM, you should see to it that people's RP style complies with PS's goal instead of trying to tell everyone that they're "RPers with different style". Yes, PS is pre-alpha. Yes, the settings needs to be expanded a lot. No, this doesn't mean that what we do now doesn't matter in the future. You are a prime example that the players of today are the GMs and devs of tomorrow. If we now make "non-PS compliant RPers" feel welcomed, then they will not only not change, but also stay, and therefore may end up being GMs and devs, and it is then that PS starts going down the drain. So, even though I'd like to be able to, I cannot and will not welcome just anybody. And neither should you.

[Akaye]

Actually, if you have reed carefully, you would see, that we mentioned at least few times a tefusang, which is animal and which is in game, but it isn't exactly valid animal. This topic gives reason why and some simple propositions.

A Tefusang isn't a valid animal? Who says? There are rules now to what is and isn't valid by the players? Players whine to have the animals not relate to real life and yet when they don't players pick the animals existence in Yliakum apart. The dev's are damned if they do and damned if they don't, and we wonder why they never answer us in these threads. No I didn't read every little bit of text in this thread and I may have missed a few things, but it isn't a surprise to be quoted and questioned.

the fact people want to RP in different ways, doesn't mean they should do it. We already have problems with people who are going outside setting and dont care about consistence of the world around them. They don't realise the can't disapare from other people RP, these people who try to be in setting and who can't ignore this what they other groups do. While there are many kinds of RP, there arent many which are valid. And i feel that i'm allowed to poit it out to people who don't get it, because i want to have valid RP experience too, in a game where things should be this way.

My point wasn't that you shouldn't set an example and speak to these people and explain that their role-play might be disruptive or could improve. My point was you don't need to take the negitive way and tell them they are a bad role-player. There are much better ways to go about the situation. JUst saying to another role-player that they are a bad role-player is enough to have them shut their ears to you. You won't get any where with an attitude like that. Also again please keep in mind if it doesn't fit your role-play style then that doesn't nessesarly mean the other player is doing something wrong. Your particular taste isn't law, and there are different varities. This is something I have learned personally after playing this game for almost two years.

Thats funny because in the whole of all your posts I didn't see that question once.

It's not funny at all. And yes, up until now I was under the impression that there actually was a well-thought out grand scheme behind PS. One that one can rely upon, and that the things that are implemented, or at least the things that are stated on the mainsite, in the settings section, are here to stay, and that in turn one can safely extrapolate from that.
BTW, I have raised this question before, twice, and was each time given acceptable reason to assume that indeed it was safe.

"That's funny becuase ..... " It's an expression. I don't think it funny in the least. I was just pointing out that I hadn't seen you ask out right. So acting like your questions are going unanswered is kind of silly because you never did ask the question.

So you know for a fact that there hasn't been thought put into the settings and game? From one post from karyuu? Maybe they don't tell us for the simple fact that everything is argued and they don't have the time for that sort of thing because they are to busy building the game.

Also one thing I would like to point out, no one has the authority to tell another player they are a bad role-player. As far as I know we are all learning to RP and there is definitely room for mistakes. None of us are that good at role-play that when we give advice that is what the other player must follow. Everyone is different, so role-play will vary between players. If it doesn't fit your role-play style then that doesn't nessesarly mean the other player is doing something wrong.

Fine, pretend that all my posts start with "IMO" or "IMNSHO" as appropriate, then. I think that (IMO, obviously) there in fact are some basics to RP that objectively make one a bad RPer, like ignoring the settings, mixing IC and OOC, lack of consistency, godmoding, using 1337, taking control of other's chars and such. And in fact these are the things that I base my judgement on. The other cases mainly consist of "Deal with it"- type players and other things that may be argued to be more "RP style" than quality, but nontheless are of influence to the RP experience.
Yes, everyone makes mistakes, and I myself have been guilty of (albeit comparatively light) "deal with it"-style RP-ing in the beginning. Still, this doesn't mean that there is no reason to (try to) improve, or that noone, not even the 1337 PL d00d from hell, can be called "bad RPer". IMO, and FAICT objectively, there are "good" RPers and there are "bad" ones. Trying to say otherwise is an attempt to declare everyone equal which isn't the case, as you stated yourself.

Therefore, if someone's idea of "RP" differs so greatly from the general concept of "RP" that it is something else, then how can you justify not calling them "bad RPer"? Sounds like political correct "never say anything bad about anyone"- newspeak to me that eliminates all meaning.

Nikodemus phrased it pretty well: of all possible kinds of RP (following your definition, not mine), there are only very few that comply to PS's goal of creating a consistent world. Therefore, what I call "bad RP" can be redefined "invalid RP in the PS sense" if need be. However, that doesn't mean that it's desirable to have in PS. As a GM, you should see to it that people's RP style complies with PS's goal instead of trying to tell everyone that they're "RPers with different style". Yes, PS is pre-alpha. Yes, the settings needs to be expanded a lot. No, this doesn't mean that what we do now doesn't matter in the future. You are a prime example that the players of today are the GMs and devs of tomorrow. If we now make "non-PS compliant RPers" feel welcomed, then they will not only not change, but also stay, and therefore may end up being GMs and devs, and it is then that PS starts going down the drain. So, even though I'd like to be able to, I cannot and will not welcome just anybody. And neither should you.

Who says I don't "see to it that people's RP style complies with PS's goal" as you put it? As a Gm I do my job thank you very much and I think that you shouldn't assume so much because it doesn't become you. I am not going to argue you with on what, how, and in what way RP should be done. Obviously I am going down the right path if I made Gm. :/ Besides this is only an attempt to try and discredit my Gming skills when you really have no clue what I do and how I do it. Maybe you should know what your talking about before you go off about how things should be done. One post by me and picked apart to death by you doesn't mean I am not doing my job.

I do however seriously think you are stepping out of line when telling another player they are a bad role-player though. You didn't seem to like being told you were doing wrong by telling a player they are a bad role-player might I point out, so why would you think another player would appreciate you pointing out they are a bad role-player and further more take you seriously? You don't have to deal with a situation like that because that is only a put down and nothing more. It doesn't help anything. Just like your picking apart my post and acting like I am a bad Gm because I don't do my job the way you think I should isn't accomplishing anything. Unlike you I welcome all people into this game. It was pointed out by a dev in a thread awhile back that this game isn't just for roleplayers, this game is for everyone and their gaming needs.

[Under the moon]

I would just like to state that no, the settings are not a grand support structure. Most of it is unknown even to its creator, and that leaves the rest of us being told to walk a path in complete darkness, and not to bump into anything on the way.

I have asked many questions on the Settings, and have pointed out where they do not make complete, or even vague sense. The usual answer is "I see not problem with that".

Contrary to belief, the basic Settings are the easiest part to create. There is no code, no art, no supporting systems, and no effects. It is all just words about a made up land. Realistic creatures are simple to come up with. Cities and lands just as easy. The history is slightly more tricky, as it has to interlock with races and culture in a way that makes sense. World building is the same as building a house. You start with a plan of where you want to end up, then build the structure to support it. PS is trying to build the roof before putting in the walls that hold it up.

The Settings seem to be a hack job shoe-in most of the time to try to support what is being created now. A government exists, but with absolutely no thought given to how it was created. Cities exist with very little history, and seem to be just places to put NPCs. Then there are the Bronze Doors, which I have always seen as the center of the game, yet there is little or no indication of how, when, or who build them. Not to mention the giant tower in Hydlaa that serves no purpose at all, and I believe was just put there as something interesting to look at. Take any subject in the game and try to ask why it is. That includes pets. Dogs, cats, even birds and horses have long histories that we can follow back as far as memory goes, and know how they came to be. In PS? All I can say is "Oh look....a pet." The roof was once again put up without the pillars to support it. How hard is it to create something to support even the smallest of things? It is not.

The history of the domestication of the Groffel (an example):

The loyal hearding creature known as Groffel is thought to have come through the same portal as the Demorian elf race, though records are not clear on the matter. In the wild days when our world was yet overrun with preditors, and the vast fields had yet to be plowed, the Groffel was indispensable to the Elves who guarded one of our ancestor’s only reliable sources of food. That being the dependable elvish cattle. As time passed, and the forests and creatures gave way to worked fields and protected farms, the lands saw fewer and fewer of the hard working Groffel. There would likely still be very few of the animals around if not for Octarch <name>, who found the creature to be quite endearing, so took one as the official pet of the First Level. This brought a vast demand for the animal to the common home, despite the fact that they made awful house pets due to their active nature. But in time, the Groffel was breed to be more calm and adapted to domestic living. The unfortunate side effect is that many of the herding instincts have also been lost in this selective breeding. One can still find a few breeders who stand by the old ways, and try to keep the original behaviors of our Groffel friends intact. These offspring still stand guard next to their herder and farmer companions just as they had in out long distant past. Old breed or new, one trait remains intact. Once grown, the creature becomes attached to its owner, and will serve no other.


And that, folks, is why people are drawn to the creatures of our own world. There is simply nothing to connect to in the pets, creatures, cultures, and past of the game. Pet are nothing but eye candy with nothing to ground them.

[Watcher]

Perhaps there could be another post on the Dev team with the job to gather all the information about events/creatures and publish them so we could have a more solid base to RP from? Someone who would have access to all the quest information all the character creation information and perhaps even able to talk to the creators of creatures/jobs to get their input on the story.

[Seytra]

@ Under the moon: I don't think the lack of actual history is the biggest problem with pets. However, their general traits likely are, which are included in your example history. People are taking things that they like IRL into PS unless there are viable, likable alternatives.
Additionally, there are no actually useful animals, save the (unattainably expensive) pterosaurs and the ryunaak (which is nothing but a name ATM). Also, there are, as has been said, few animals, if any, that may appeal to one in the way that cats or wolves do. Groffels and Yulbars are starting to fill the gap for general-purpose pets, but there's nothing resembling the deadly grace of some RL predators.

Regarding the unknownness of PS's background: are you sure? On one hand, we get "you shouldn't RP glyphs that aren't implemented", while on the other, we now get "there is no problem with <just about anything>"? Maybe I should post a question on the Q&A thread.

@Watcher: that would be an option, but AFAIK only devs have access to the quest database, let alone the remaining things, so it'd have to be a dev. And that would pretty much make it impossible to happen, as devs rarely ever post at all.

@ Akaye: I'm going to send my reply to you as PM, to not further disrupt this thread.

[Akaye]

Can I make one thing clear here. People seem to have this misconception that Gm's have the power to add or change game mechnics and settings. This is not the case. We are here to police the game and help players with any problems that may cause problematic issues for the player. We are also here to promote the settings and create events for player enjoyment. We cannot impliment our thoughts, ideas, beliefs into the settings of planeshift. We cannot change anything with the game. We follow the rules that have been made and we enforce them. Nothing more and nothing less.

There are two Gm's that have dev settings as well. Please do not confuse the two jobs though. Most of us Gm's are just players who have been around awhile and know enough about the game to help out players and create events. We at times are in the dark too with certain age old topics and can't be expected to know the answers just because we are Gm's.

@Seytra: Sure, I will make it a point to check my pm's.

[Garile]

Wel thread seems to have drifted more to the setting in general again while I was away.

Personally my problem with the setting is it hasn't really been exapanded in the two years I have been playing. Since the transfer to CB there hasn't been any updates to the stories that is of any use in the characters life.  Now the few things that has been added ingame I hear aren't even written by the settingteam and aren't even checked by seeing they at points don't comply with the setting.

Also the argument setting should evolve with the game is invalid. One because it isn't evolving while the game at the moment is and two becuase there are plenty of roleplaying games made with whole books already written as the setting like the Wheel of Time roleplaying games. It might give the developers of those kind of games a lot less creativity in creating maps, but it also gives them a clear line of what they have to create.

[Sangwa]

Even though this is a MMORPG, it's obvious the devs aren't concentrating on the Rolepaly part currently. Only on the massive multiplayer game part. And we're supposed to test the game. With or without some its most relevant content.

I know it can be frustrating. And that this could've been done before there was even an executable file, libraries and models. Oh well, there are plenty of other things completly wrong about the way things are done in PS. I've played Molecular Blue though, so I'm not too demanding.

Currently I consider as the best option asking the GM's for help on issues such as these (where we can't know how to conduct our roleplay). We ask them, they answer, we go along with our roleplay knowing we did nothing wrong.

I'd also consider creating a wish thread, with opinions on animal names, descriptions, etc. If we leave it all up to Talad and his creative team (if any) we're bound to stay like this for quite some time. Oh wait. We probably will stay like this anyway.

[Garile]

If you think about it that way it sometimes makes you feel cheated with the promises that PS would be different. Making it so the community is still this RP focussed despite the game instead of because of it.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

we may rarely post but we do read

Seytra is correct in the assumption that many of the species of animals likely exist but they likely have different names/qualities etc. the same is true for basic types of plants etc.

whoever meantioned the idea that many of the races brought livestock with them etc this is true or not to various degrees based on the race and their history. The Xacha for instance likely brought nothing other than their emmaciated bodies, having eaten everything edible in their long period of hunger. The ylains could be expected to bring their livestock however. The dermorian brought trees (from settings) the diaboli brought giant snakes (from settings)

Pack animals such as horses or donkeys will likely exist at some point but they will not be like donkeys or horses. <--for example

From the perspective of a player having a cat or a raven to use in your rp is probably ok.

From the perspective of settings dept pushing too much for animals that are not currently in game (no models etc) is not the best expenditure of our energy. Utm points to more vital areas to concentrate on.

Many of you have been here for years so it is hard to say to you to be patient with new content, but i can tell you we have an active settings dept atm and you should have already experienced this.

* Xillix Queen of Fools kicks utm

I cannot promise all the gaps will be filled as there are many but you can expect some to be filled soon(tm)

P.S. Emeraldfool don't let them get you upset, we are all just noobs with fancy hats on.