Author Topic: Planeshift Impressions  (Read 5945 times)

Idoru

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2006, 02:35:54 am »
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As this is imposible i rather want 90% believable world over 40% or less as in case of "any RPG".

I love that sentonce and I think it sums up crafting very well. People used to the 'click some materials and it happens' would find how it works in PS very daunting and most likely quite boring and frustrating ;)

"May there only be peaceful and cheerful Earth Days to come for our beautiful Spaceship Earth as it continues to spin and circle in frigid space with its warm and fragile cargo of animate life."

Hurleybird

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2006, 02:48:37 am »
hehe, you are soon going to change your RPg definition or leave PS ;)
PS isn't any RPG and god bless it for this. It is funny as you write about believability while you say realism is bad for RPG. A game world may be only believable if all its aspects try to be realistic.

A game where you live in a huge magical underground cavern isn't realistic at all, but you can make it believable.

Take magic, which is completely unrealistic, but that is not to say that you can't make it believable. JRRT and C.S. Lewis do a good job of making magic believable, while, say, J.K. Rowling doesn't.

There is no such thing as a "realistic fantasy" as fantasy is by definition unreal, a believable fantasy is entirely possible though.


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If you don't like interaction then you are playing the wrong game.

I like interaction, but I think requiring interaction to learn the basics of the game too restricting to new players. I've made my viewpoint overly clear on the matter.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 02:52:08 am by Hurleybird »

eldoth_terevan

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2006, 02:50:56 am »
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The game is unfriendly to new players. It dumps you in the middle of the city with no equipment, no money (which isn't really good for role playing, by the way) with no idea what to do.

Gee, you make that sound like a bad thing!  :D

Idoru

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2006, 02:52:08 am »
True, but you make a fantasy believable by getting the little details correct, having 7 feet tall beings made of rock is not realistic, but having the entrance to a sewer obscured from public view is the kind of little detail that adds to the believability

"May there only be peaceful and cheerful Earth Days to come for our beautiful Spaceship Earth as it continues to spin and circle in frigid space with its warm and fragile cargo of animate life."

Hurleybird

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2006, 02:57:34 am »
True, but you make a fantasy believable by getting the little details correct, having 7 feet tall beings made of rock is not realistic, but having the entrance to a sewer obscured from public view is the kind of little detail that adds to the believability

Agreed. However, I haven't said that you should put the sewers in the middle of town, have I? I think they should be easily reachable, for example, and NPC could say that there are monsters in the sewers and that they are a common place for new adventurers to go, and give some general directions. I also think that there should be someone relatively nearby that you an sell your loot to (think about it, if you were a merchant who bought rat hides, wouldn't you want to be closer to the sewers in order to catch as many adventurers as possible.) as it currently is, it's impossible to make any money without countless hours of searching for a merchant who buys animal parts/hides and/or convincing someone to show you where these merchants are.

Idoru

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2006, 03:04:55 am »
I agree that the hide issue is a little bit of a problem, but given that Rat hides sell for an insignifigant price compared to the hides of Ulbernaughts and Tefusang it is reasonable to expect they are not in particularly high demand, hence not many people (none infact) near the sewers want to purchase them. I would point out that Rat Eyes and Tails are actually sellable in Hydlaa. i personally try to think that the one NPC that buys rat hides (unless something has changed) is doing you more of a favour than a service.

As for the NPCs giving you directions to the sewers; which NPC, what string would they respond to?

Even if you made 10% of the NPCs say, ' there are horrible rats in the sewers'. you would still get people coming here saying I cant find anything I can kill. And the fact remains that there are rats in the sewers where I live, but 'when' I go into my town centre and say to someone, 'where can I kill something?' They would normally phone the police (or call the guards as it would be in PS). that is one of those little details I refered to :)

[Edit- to swap O's for A's where I keep making that error. and to say , Bravo me, 400 posts :D it is good to have a job where I do nothing and have broadband access lol]
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 03:07:11 am by Idoru »

"May there only be peaceful and cheerful Earth Days to come for our beautiful Spaceship Earth as it continues to spin and circle in frigid space with its warm and fragile cargo of animate life."

eldoth_terevan

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2006, 03:06:41 am »
Actually, why would anyone buy rat hides where there was an abundance of them? Makes more sense for them to be worth something where they are more scarce... Why "convince" anyway? How did you ask? These are rhetorical questions. All questions are answered in game, but the coin of the realm is stories. Too much of a challenge?

witchking

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2006, 03:47:05 am »
I hate to say this but it is Pre-alpha, not a finished piece. I would guess that this will come in time.

Pre-Alpha? Even Alpha is something that the developers only test internally within the development team. PlaneShift is an open Beta.

Page 16 of PlaneShift Presentation from Crystal Space Conference states that it is a Beta:

http://www.crystalspace3d.org/downloads/conference_2006/planeshift_conf.pdf

Luca Pancallo calls it a Beta at 16:40 time index in this video presentation:

http://crystalspace3d.org/downloads/conference_2006/movies/ps_big_xvid.avi

Either Luca labelled it incorrectly or it's time to accept that it is a Beta now. ;) However, neither probably applies to PlaneShift, since Alpha and Beta definitions are usually based on commercial products, where Alpha is an internal dev team test, while Beta includes some or any external users. Beta is also defined as a final test before a commercial release. And since PlaneShift isn't a commercial game... Still, it's officially a Beta, whatever you make of it.

By the way, and this is no longer directed at Idoru, think very hard before stating that PlaneShift is so drastically different and unique from anything else out there that no similar experiences apply, and, "God forbid", anyone should suggest anything similar to other games. Check Page 7 of CS Press Conf. where it states that PS is modeled after Everquest, World of Warcraft, and Dark Age of Camelot. Luca clearly states in the video that those are very successful projects and are good examples to learn from.

I've also noticed that many PlaneShift purists immediately get all upset when someone suggests anything from a different MMORPG/RPG game or a fantasy setting as a good example to adopt or learn from, since "those are not PlaneShift!!!", continuously forgetting this from the main PlaneShift site:

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"The Wish List Forum is reserved to give good ideas on what you would like to see in the game. Will be good to post here also ideas taken from other games."

Just a little friendly addition to this discussion. ;)

Idoru

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2006, 04:05:42 am »
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Either Luca labelled it incorrectly or it's time to accept that it is a Beta now.  However, neither probably applies to PlaneShift, since Alpha and Beta definitions are usually based on commercial products, where Alpha is an internal dev team test, while Beta includes some or any external users. Beta is also defined as a final test before a commercial release. And since PlaneShift isn't a commercial game... Still, it's officially a Beta, whatever you make of it.

That is clearly a PR statement duesigned to make people more welcoming to the project and is thus complete BS from where we stand ;) ...... In the plaza chatting untill I just crashed lol

It does just use 'paid' testers to test the game, we are paid with the experience of hwat IMO is a fantastic game where we can meet new people.

The same goes for comparisons, if Luca, and personally I prefer to refer to him as Talad, was to compare it to comercial titles such as WoW then it is obvious PR, I play WoW and can very rarely see any comparison at all.... and I mean that in a positive way.

I would personally love to se some of the thing that are implemented in other MMORPGs included in PS, an example would be the ability to 'link' weapons inchat, although I think only in priwate chat would be appropriate for PS.

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bilbous

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2006, 07:11:13 am »
I think that the sewers are not realistically implimented.  There are only two openings, the underground layout seems to have little relation to the above ground features. It also has too many ups and downs to provide for good drainage. There is no grates above to allow water to enter the sewer nor below provide light. It would seem that it is designed as a completely separate area when it would be more appropriate to be a part of the town. Jayose part of town and the under temple area should also be integral to the town. I understand that this would likely be too much of a memory hog but I think in total area it would still be smaller than the BD region. I can't say that I have ever mapped out the underground regions, it is just my impression that should they be placed in geometric relation to each other they would not line up. Am I correct in thinking that they are completely self contained areas and that there is no overall world space in which they all exist?

Pizzasgood

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2006, 08:13:36 am »
I'm a pretty new player.  When I was dropped into the middle of a big honkin' 3d city, I thought, "Cool!  Time to explore!"  I proceeded to run around for a while, chat with an NPC, and fall to my death. :@#\  I then tiptoed past the scary dude in the Death Realm, went outside, looked up, and thought,  "Cool!  Time to explore some more!"  Several hours later I found my way out.  Next I found one of the gates, and explored the wilderness until I fell off a mountain ::)

I could have asked for help, but I was in no hurry and I like exploring.  Also, I'm a bit on the taciturn side, and real-time chat always feels awkward to me.  This will change as I get more used to Planeshift and RPing.  At first the social nature seemed annoying, and not being the type to ask for directions, I just found/learned things myself.  Now I'm starting to feel more at home though, and realize how much more interesting interaction makes this game.  Isn't that the point of playing with real people?

It's the same as if you went to a new town in real life.  You won't know where everything is until you explore a bit.  And I mean in the days before GPS and Google Earth.  I actually liked the feeling of being dropped into a new place and getting to learn stuff without it being spoon-fed to me.  I got to experiment.  It's tougher than many games,  but you get much more satisfaction when you finally mine some gold and vacate the poor house.  You've earned it through hard work.  I got Final Fantasy III for Christmas, and the first boss seemed too easy (I mean the djinn, not the thing you fight solo in the beginning).  Getting to him with a full party was the hard part.  Once I got there and destroyed him, I felt like I stole a lollipop from a kid, or like Square stole a lollipop from me.  Sure, it was just the first boss, but I would have liked a challenge.  I didn't get the same feeling of achievement beating that boss as I did when I mined my first chunk of gold in Planeshift.  (Incidentally, I'm very glad that both FF-III and Planeshift let me equip a sword in each hand if I so choose, without any annoying extra skills needing to be learned :thumbup: ).


By the way, if I were to go skin a beaver in real life, I can guarantee I wouldn't know where to take the pelt.  My dad would know, and I'd ask him or whoever's handy.  Medieval life didn't come with an instruction manual, and the manuals for modern life are mostly poorly written, outsourced, biased, or self-serving.  The best way is still to just ask somebody for help.


bilbous posted while I was typing, so I'll add a response:  In terms of reality, yes they seem completely ridiculous.  I'm no expert in sewers, but they should collect whatever they're collecting and shunt it all to a central place, obeying the laws of gravity, and do something with it.  They should more or less follow the streets or lines of houses, with their elevation corresponding to the elevation of the ground.  They would need to not interfere with the cave under the temple, and if they do intersect, it should show.  A way of moving between them in such a case would be cool.  More entrances would also be nifty, so you could use it as an alternate path through the city.  They don't have to co-exist in the same map, but they should be compatible if one were to pretend they co-existed.  Hopefully that will be adjusted in the future.  Some Planeshift style turtles would also be cool.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 08:17:02 am by Pizzasgood »
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zanzibar

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2006, 09:16:52 am »
@Hurleybird:  In response to your first post, there is a reason for the mouselook to be so slow.  People where using it to jump corners in weird ways in order to jump to platforms they weren't supposed to be able to get to.  As far as the rest of it, I agree very much so, especially in terms of the game being "noob friendly".  Even though the game is in pre-beta (or whatever you wish to call it), such things should still be of immediate concern.
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Zan

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2006, 09:37:20 am »
You call it bad design decision .. I call it originality.
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Hurleybird

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2006, 10:04:50 am »
You call it bad design decision .. I call it originality.

Perhaps it's an original bad design?  ;)

drah

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Re: Planeshift Impressions
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2006, 10:25:28 am »
Signposts and some knowledgeable NPCs would help the noobs. (Like ones that could respond positively to "where can I sell (item)" - At the moment the NPCs just respond in a way that implies you're making no sense at all when you ask them some basic things... when... realistically, you'd expect each NPC to have at least a little bit of knowledge about their surroundings.

Of course... this all takes work... and regarding NPC dialog.. a lot of tedious work I'm sure.