Creation of a Guild

[Garile]

At the moment the guildsystem starts with 20k trie and four people you need to convince to join. However it doesn't require anything else. This is leading to a lot of guilds with questionable names and often without a IC role or even worse one against the setting completely.

Becuase of these guilds that in my opinion don't really add anything lasting I think it would be a much better idea that, instead of the system we have now, one "petitions" for the creation of a guild. A petition where you are required to tell why you are creating the guild and what it would add to the world and tell it's history and goals.

I don't feel the screening should  be to hard specially on the part of what they feel it would add to the world, but atleast it would prevent many violation of the settings at the gate and perhaps one could even decide to stop the 999th knights of the something.

I also feel the most serious guildleaders would apreciate the help to make their guild a true part of Yliakum.

[neko kyouran]

Although I recall discission on this before, 11 pages into  asearch of just the wishlist area didn't turn it up so this stays. 

Question, how do explain asking a body that is completely ooc to the world, while you're IC, if you can make a guild?

The only way I can see that working is if you start saying that the GMs are like an IC governing body, and your character is givng them a petition to start a guild.  And then they as a governing body, look it over an either approve of it, or thrown in in the gutter for wasting thier time.  This could work, say for trade type guilds.  But it wouldn't work so well say for guilds of a secretive nature.  And this would then start greying that line that says GMs are OOC.

With the GM team as it is, with the work load they have, guild petitions could be in queye for quite some time as well.

My searching did bring up a few results that I reread.  Good ideas, that while not directly related to this idea, the concept is the same, and thus should be read before posting here.

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=14212.0 (the thread that lead to the guild requirements that currently exist in game)
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=21603.0 (another thread about guild fees and other ideas)
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=18832.0 (concerning guild inviting)

[Garile]

Well I read the first two already, but seriously do you want to restart threads more then a year old?

Question, how do explain asking a body that is completely ooc to the world, while you're IC, if you can make a guild?

First of the question is what does having a guild at this moment add? At the moment this is only OOC guildchat and an OOC banner under ones name. Roleplaywise you can still play a guild without the mechanics of the game.

Second of IC you wouldn't be asking so why would this be an issue IC? If the guild is rejected becuase it is outside the setting the reason it wont be created is just that. You roleplayed your character having ideas it shouldn't have had. The time it takes to get aproved could be seen as the time it takes for the people in general to accept you as one group.

Third I agree if this would be implemented it would be best to have a new position, but personally I don't see it taking more then one person if you really ask for a minimum quality when you want to create a guild. How many guilds have you seen created lately with a  good quality story and background and IC reasoning? If you have one person being able to read and judge two of those petitions per day on average I doubt you'll have a quee that would make people feel ignored.

The return you get however would be a gradual dissapearing of guilds that aren't IC and disrupt the RP feeling and the increase of IC oriented guild becuase the ones creating guilds will atleast be forced to think about their RProle when petitioning.

[Robinmagus]

I only read the this being ooc part sooo...

I don't see how clicking a totally ooc button and throwing 20k trias to the wind is ic. Where does the tria go? Why did we give it? Who did we give it to? Who approved the guild? If us, why the hell did we just throw out 20k trias? Etc, etc. Not putting down the current system, but I'm sure that the dev team is going to find a great IC way to do it as time passes.

[Idoru]

The only thing I can think is how would you feel if someone decided your guild was unworthy and was disbanded? I personally, as leader of a guild, would be devestated and would no longer bother with the game. I think many other players would react in a similar manner. It is my guild that keeps me logging into the game.

[Garile]

Obviously this would, as the title pretty much suggests, apply to the creation of new guilds. It would happen before a guild was created. It wouldn't be an evaluation afterwards so you wouldn't have guilds being disbanded, just not being created in the first place.

Becuase it is so hard to change a guild already there and becuase those changes are so obviously OOC and is then hard to ignore IC, it is in my opinion a lot easier to make sure such changes aren't nececary for obvious reasons by having them being checked before hand.

[bilbous]

But then you are talking about a world wipe because you cannot fairly penalize new guilds when there are old ones they can point to and say "but that guild". It is just asking for trouble.

[Garile]

So you want to penalize the existing guilds? The ones that have already proven they work and already had an inpact in the world in RPs? How would you roleplay the sudden disbanding of all that use the guildsystem?

I would limit it to new guilds as a must and stongly hint the existing guild to do the same. Perhaps later when you are doing a wipe anyhow you could then do the old guilds. It wouldn't be fair to not give the old guilds atleast time and if work is the trouble you can imagine if all guilds now existing would all come at once. That would really be unpractical I think.

You might call it unfair but the people who created the old guilds did so fully complying I asume with the rules there at that moment. Also I don't see it as penalizing the new guilds. I see it as asking them for the things a guild in a game focussed on RP should have. How often have there been disputes about names being changed? The reason they are so heated is becuase that is done when the guild is already up and running. That for example "hell" is a word from RL suddenly doesn't mean that much to the members of that guild, becuase lets be honest most of the members probably decided to join on the name in the first place.

I feel it is a much better idea to move those discusions to before the guilds are created.

[bilbous]

But a world wipe is a given. Are you saying that the guilds should survive any general chatracter wipe? What happened the last time, it was before the current guild system right?
I am not saying we should rush into a wipe just for this but there are some other things that would benefit from a general wipe and an eventual wipe is planned at some stage. All I am saying, I guess, is that the status quo is fine for now and let us get all our ducks in row fro when the inevitable comes.

As far as punishing the current guilds go I see it as enforcing the rules consistantly, in stead of having a hodge-podge of exceptions. Allowing exceptions is where grey areas turn black, if you will. Besides, how will you role-play a world wipe? You don't, you start fresh with all new stories. Why should some user contrived group span disparate world epochs? If all the characters are different would it not be likely that they would form different associations? How is it valid role play to recreate the same character when all else changes? As far as I am concerned, when the wipe comes all character names and guild names should be locked. Otherwise it is open season on identity theft. I could steal the Shalmaneser name from Zanzibar if I just registered it first. I don't know why I personally would want to steal his or another characters name but I can conceive that others might. If you are upset that all the out of game work involved with your guild would be lost, it would not be required. Your new guild could have a "historical" connection. In other words your new guild could be based upon "discovered manuscripts" that relate information about the lost guild's history.

It just seems to me that a world wipe is a perfect opportunity for a new age of the realm whenever it may come.

[Earl_Listbard]

Guilds in this place we call reality don't get judged for acceptance by rulers or gods. Various terrorist orginazations and cults of the modern era don't go to the UN and ask if their name or goal is reasonable...

if people are willing to follow one person, so be it. After all, whats in a name? An identity is not made by a name, or quoted causes in life, but rather by actions... Heres a bit of an example... as a dwarf I was standing around in yliakum, some other dwarves from the way of the hammer were at harnquists, I was there too. Some elf (forget the race now) dropped in on the hammer guild members and started picking on them... Well, I noticed a menki bearing the guild tag of the outlaws dropped in, he listened in on the arguing and decided to help the hammers whom were innocent in the situation, well he made work of the elf, though not quick... But that isn't the point!

Rather, the point I wish to make is that the outlaw helped the dwarves who were in trouble, and generaly the name "the outlaws" makes you believe they're evil bullies... But this situation proves other wise. As long as a guild name isn't vulgar I don't mind seeing odd guilds...

The only thing I would perhaps like to see is instead of a minimum of 5 members, the count should be raised slightly so there are less small guilds out there.

Sorry if I brought out points already spoken of.


-EL

[bilbous]

Bah if that guy was worthy of the name outlaw he should have extorted the dwarves after dispatching the bully (which was probably just for fun).

[Earl_Listbard]

That may be true bilbous... but keep in mind, its just an example, though I do get what you mean.


-EL

[bilbous]

Sorry, I was itching to make an off-topic post for a couple hours now in various threads and finally scratched the least offensive way I could. As far as your comment about guilds being judged, they usually get around to incorporating and subject themselves to government oversight, unless you you start talking about criminal gangs and such which often get their names from the media. It doesn't matter much if you call yourselves the Imperial Ocelots if the media dubs you the "purple pussycats" and makes it stick.

[Garile]

*smiles*

The purple pussycats hehe

Anyhow to return ontopic

@bilbous

You are talking about an world wipe, but are acting as if that would be an RPwipe aswell. Now I have had several wipes already and am suprised at that suggestion becuase this really never happened. Guilds like the Dark Empire and the Dragon Council simply recreate themselves and most people will simply recreate their main character aswell. With starting stats then obviously, but they don't roleplay a sudden loss of abilities either. So why would next wipe be different?

As for stealing names. GMs I believe are able to check what account you have. I remember being viceleader of a guild and have a GM check if the leader who came online was really the leaders account before handing over the recreated guild.

Anyhow I am not saying when a worldwipe would come we shouldn't implement it for the old guilds aswell. I am saying it would simply not be practical to not do it for the new guilds first and then when the worldwipe comes make it go for all guilds. This way when the worldwipe comes you have already checked all those new guilds and only need to check if they changed anything and only need to review the old guilds that are still arround. And if the system has been in place for more then two months before the worldwipe I doubt that would mean a lot of guildchecking, becuase there aren't to many guilds that survive that long.

@ Earl_Listbard

True I don't believe we should roleplay we are submiting a guildapplication with the octarch or something, but my suggestion isn't to have an IC check, but an OOC check.

It would be there to make sure you as a player aren't sneaking in things from RL or from Lord of the Rings or some other media. It's not to prevent you from becoming outlaws and try to slaughter all that travel a certain road, but it's to make sure we don't get legions of Gandalfs swearing to destroy the ring by having someone bring it to Mount Doom.

[bilbous]

Well Personally I come from a pen and paper background with funny shaped dice and everything. It just seems to me a character wipe is like a fresh campaign. You may be using the same setting (World of Greyhawk, for example) but you roll up new characters. Don't your old characters ever feel played out? Wouldn't you like to try something different, create new stories? Do your old characters never do things completely out of character because you the player is having a bad day? A fresh start, new beginnings, new tails to chase and stories  to invent for the grandkids.  Why settle for the sameol' sameol'?