Character Starting Locations, introduction to the game, suggested change

[Under the moon]

[Edit]  Moved out of this thread: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26962.0 and into it's own into the WishList area so it doesn't become lost.    --Neko [/Edit]


"The objective of the PlaneShift is to create a virtual fantasy world in which a player can start as a peasant in search of fame and become a hero."

Ok, I can except that... if it had any basis at all in how you start the game. If we are to start out as peasants -AKA farmers, apprentices, miners (yes, miners ARE peasants), fishers, and other types of laborers- then start us out as such. Peasants HAVE jobs and can make money without starting on the path to become a 'hero' (yawn).

Yes, I know there has been talk of a Newblin City, which is almost as silly as tossing newcomers into the plaza without knowing anything about the game, including how to move. Oh yes, I know there is a player guide, and sometimes the information in it is accurate, but that is also the most counterintuitive way to learn how to do anything. The best way is by learning and doing or following the lead of another. Now, this may sound like I am agreeing with those that say players should be helping each other 'learn the ropes'.  No. I am saying the game mechanics and NPCs should be talking up part of that role, and once newblins learn the basics, THEN it is up to other players to fine tune the roleplaying aspect of newcomers. How?

Jobs and a starting point.

These two things tie together to form the beginning of a character's journey. A thing that is sadly lacking in this game. Let's go into that a bit. You fill out those little gems of history in Character Creation that give you a background and skills... then get tossed tria-less into the middle of town, and that backstory and those skills seem to mean nothing.

Now, how that -should- be done is completely different. There -should- be starting points in the game, but not in the center of the main city. The starting points should NOT (in big bold letters so it can't be missed) be based on race, as that starts new players off with the completely wrong idea of what this game is about. This is not WoW and race against race.

A simple addition to Character Creation would solve a great deal of the hostilities between new players and old. "My character starts the game as a <select peasant job>"

Now, how would that help? Simple. Young peasants have jobs. Those jobs are at places. Those places are generally not in the center of town. Satellite communities or camps would have to be set up a short run from the main cities, which should ALSO be chosen in Creation by the player instead of the silly race crap. Those that chose mining as their starting job would start out in a mining camp. There would be an NPC standing right in front of them that would immediately greet them as if they were an old friend (this establishes the background that they did, in fact, work at a mine before they were created), hand them their pick and tell them exactly where they are supposed to mine that day. And yes, the mine would be very easy to get to. Inside the mine would be more NPCs, and even a few player controlled teachers, who get training in teaching for staying at the Newbie camps and talking to newcomers. Little tasks and rewards would be set up in such a way that it would show newblins how the game is meant to be played and roleplayed, and even earn them some tria and training. Note that none of these tasks are needed, as anybody can walk out of the camps at any time they wish.

The same goes for other 'peasant' beginings. Farmers would start out at a large, public farm, with weeding, planting, and the disposal of a small pests on ocation. Fishers would start out at a dock. Hunters find themselves at the hunter camp, with hides that need to be taken or tanned. There are other such camps that could be set up, but it is best to limit the number to five or less. The point of these camps would not be extreme training or powerleveling, but to give the right impression, and to teach players a bit of how to play. People who wanted to go help 'newbs' could, and would be rewarded for it via the teaching skill.

And yes, I know this is just a testbed game. No, I do not expect anything like this to be done in the near future, or at all. I just state what would help get the ball rolling in the right direction.

[Karyuu]

Moon, your ideas are always well thought-out and made with good, if always pessimistic, intentions. And once we have farming and weeding and planting and all the really cool things that would entail, as well as other working jobs of a similar level, you might see exactly this happening. If we don't have a newbie-friendly system at the moment, it doesn't mean that we're not aware of it. Vengeance created a new character a long time ago, had no idea what to do, got completely lost, and complained in the dev channel for days about it.

So what can we do right now that won't have to wait for new game features? We can let people start off with some coin and items, which has been brought up here and internally. Then we can spend time and effort on newbie NPCs now, or wait until we have a separate newbie area (not everything is as far away as you might think). You haven't explained why you think that "Newblin City" would be a bad idea, and I'm interested in an elucidation.

Most of what you have suggested though cannot be done in a month, or even several - don't you think they'd be here by now?

[Narure]

I like moons idea. I dont like the idea of a newblin city, because, its completely ooc to have a city for noobs, whereas its perfecty ic for someone new to the game to start with a job. If it where to be implemented the logical order would be to put in the areas for it THEN the skills and what have you THEN the whole spawny thing. Im sure it would be finished Soon (tm). 

[Nikodemus]

Definetly a good idea.
Playing morrowind elder scrolls, you start on a boat, then have to walk to an office in a building. In the process you get name, then shape your character, based on your choices in different situations you get skills and stats.
That's example.
The point is that UtM is completly right, we don't start in the middle of some random place without any idea what we are exactly doing there.
Probably not soon to come, but honestly, i can't think of better introduction of the player into the game mehanics and life in the world.
Each starting character has its past and i believe it should be up to the player to decide if he is going to city to look for fame and glory, or rather stay in the mine, farm or whatever for a while. Such a place is small and it should have everything what a miner/farmer/whatever needed for basic needs to life without going somewhere far away. This way a player shouldn't get lost.
The only problem i can think of is to not make such a place too much invitng for older players who look for easy and fast way of making big amounts of money. Because history show that life is "better" in towns, not mining camps and farms in the village. Maybe not exactly, better, but towns are the places where people move to, it is rarely the opposite.

[Narure]

well the town is where all the crafts people and merchants go, there is more money in that so there you go.

[bilbous]

The thing about the jobs is that mostly in such a setting they pay only subsistance wages and you are working literally to eat and sleep. That is why people run off to be adventurers. I could see a free mining camp where you could hire on or start at for coal or iron, low value ore, but not silver or gold or diamonds. These high value mines would likely have slave/prison workers as they would lose too many workers walking off in the night with the days collection otherwise. Likewise farmers and fishermen would likely not be able to get much in the way of starting stuff, perhaps a scythe or a gaff of club to use as a weapon, little money and some food. Of course, at the moment nobody needs to eat but I think that will change. A smith might be able to run off with some tools and perhaps some low quality or partially completed weapons as the high quality stuff will likely be locked away.

I think that if such a system were to be implimented it would be good to have a randomly occurring event that a beginner could wait for such as a valuable crystal find in the coal mine, a rare mushroom in the field, a pearl in the gullet of a caught fish, etc, basically the big break to start the adventurers life.

Cosmetic Edit

[Nikodemus]

The thing is there is 1 on 100 players who would enjoy playing a poor peasant who can barery earn for food. Most players want a lot of money in short time, so he game devs are providing this so people can have fun. In consequence we have unbelieving world and in many areas it differ from the RL. I'm all for hard, low paying jobs and working hard for the living in a MMORPG, but i feel like i'm that 1 on 100 people. It is very important aspect of a  game, but not enough people care about it. Also i'm not judging PS right now, since it is too early to say a thing, but i'm giving a good advice for future.
Without this, what Narure said may happen to be invalid in a game.
It is all about setting enviroment basing on RL, even if not liked.

[Under the moon]

* Under the moon chuckles.

Sorry for the pessimism, but as the scorpion once said, it is in my nature. And thank you, Neko, for properly affixing my rant to the right forum.

Just to further clarify, the beginning 'spawns' at the peasant camps would not be a place to live, grow strong, or get rich. They are just a point of reference that shows what the game is about. Older and more mature characters can go back there, but it would be much like an Ulber hunter going back tot he sewers to hunt rats, only easier. The camps would be there to teach people how to use the basic systems, and give the basic idea of what type of roleplaying is expected. If you know how to do so already, then you just walk out. Easy as that.

As to why I am against the idea of a single Newblin City where all players first spawn, that is pure basic psychology. Take a large group of people who do not know how to do something and put them in one huge room without any proper instruction as to what, exactly, they are supposed to be learning. Now set up learning centers all around the room that have no proper instructors. People will take little bits of learning here and there from the source, but will get a lot second hand from others. A lot of this will be wrong, or twisted a bit from the original purpose. Soon you have most of the people using the room as they -think- it was meant to be used, and spreading that knowledge to any new person coming into the room. Now, add into that that to room is supposed to be an operating business that already has some people who are trying to get their job done, but have to stop all the time to correct the mistakes of others, or teach them how things run. Finally, give the new people free access to the main room where all the people who have been around for a while and know how things are meant to be done are.

I hope you see the parallel there, and the possible chaos it creates.

Now, take that same group of people and divide them into smaller groups in smaller rooms surrounding the main room where the work is getting done. Give each of those small rooms easy to follow instructions on how to do the task in that room, and tell what the purpose of the main room is. Others in that room will be learning the same exact thing, so can help each other without getting any information crossed. Add in bonuses given to people who come out of the main room to give instruction and guidance. When a person thinks they are ready to leave, they will have not only the basic idea of what to do and how to act in the main room, but also an idea of how to learn all the things taught in the other small rooms.

Systematic, basic, and productive.

This is all on top of the fact that a newb city is hard to realistically explain away in an RPG. Small beginnings, on the other hand, come naturally.

[Choren]

What if the character is not a peasant?  Where would they start?  What if there family owns a bussiness that sells goods?  I don't think that character would necearly go out into the courty to get a job.  They would most likely work for there parnts.  Some one who is going to  be a blacksmith would likely be apprentices to someone esle and then would be in a town or city.

What about someone who is a hunter where would they start.  Or if they have a history of being a guard or there faimly happen to be rich.  What would happen to them.  Also not all the characters start out young and inexparence.

[Nikodemus]

Choren, read the first sentence of UtM.
I suppose you forgot to refer about some material we have in character creation, but was referng to it.
Anyway, I don't see a problem to create a place for every type of character. But this will most likely come later as this what UtM stated and you also forgot about, is an idea far younger than character creation.