Author Topic: Crafting -- Books, Blueprints etc.  (Read 1285 times)

rtrentc

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Crafting -- Books, Blueprints etc.
« on: January 02, 2007, 01:39:13 am »
First off I know that some of this has been covered before in various posts but I think that what I am posting was not covered exactly, but rather I am stating what I think is an answer to several posts (I read a ton of them before writing this post).

The Problem: The System is too limiting and unrealistic. Take for example the Book of Blades. 1 stock -- knife handle, 2 - stocks Sword handle, 4 stocks Dagger Blade, 6 stocks -- Shortsword etc. As the number of blades to be made increases so does the number of stocks to be used. This can easily create a balancing problem as well as just being unrealistic. Take the Sabre. this is a thinner lighter weapon than the shortsword (looks to be based on the roman gladius). But based on what I have done so far, you will have to use more  than 6 stocks for a sabre if its even in the list of blades to be made.

Why: The system needs to be not only more realistic but it also needs to be more flexible.

Solution: The answer to the problem would require a bit of a reworking of the code, as well as the creation of new data in the databases. And a new items as well.
  1) New items. A new container that would hold the books or blueprints of weapons, armor, shields and anyother crafting item you could think of. This would be needed because of the increase in the number books that the player would have. It would operate similiar to the Glyph Sack. Eventually a second container similiar to the bookshelf in the jayose library would be needed once player house's of some sort are created. A new set of books to be aquired. Each book would be for a class or type of weapon. Shortsword, Dagger, Longsword etc. This gives the dev's a way to create a more balanced system since now there are more options available and you can now have items that are different in class and design but close enough to each other in weight that the same number of stocks would be more reasonable.

2) The books would have skill requirements so that more complex or powerful weapons would only become available if the character has the required skill level. This would show up in the new system of menu's.Just like you can only repair items of a certain complexity based on your level of repair skill, only those weapons you have the skill to make would become available.

3) A new system of crafting items. Not a radical change, just the addition of a new window with a menu for the selection of what your creating. This way you can have one set of blueprints or book give you multiple blades of differing complextity within the same class. A good example of this would be if you wanted to allow players to make say Simple Daggers, Dark Daggers, SilverWeave Daggers etc. Those items  on the new menu would be the items that you could make given the number of stocks etc that you are working on and the level of skill you have. If you have worked a stock once to make say Dagger Alpha Blade, then a second working wouldn't require the menu since all  your doing is refining the blade you started with unless you want them to start with the simple blade and then if they have skill have the menu would give them the more complex blade.

It is the third point that is most required. Even if only the third point is implemented and you didn't replace the Book of Blades with multiple books for different classes of swords, the addition of a menu based on number of stocks, or other items being worked on would still give you more flexibility in the system. But I think having multiple books would be best, as this opens up more quests that you can make.

4) A side note -- Player Created Books. What I am talking about here is not where you have code that takes a set of weapon stats and creates a book based on the characters skill although this is possible as well, but rather the character/player would create a weapon design, this would consist of the parts required, the stats of the weapon, potion etc. This is then submitted to the devs/Gm/etc. If it is accepted then the character would be given the book. Like all books the entries would only be available if the character has the needed skill level to build the item in question

So to wrap this up.
1) A new system of menu's to add flexibilty to the crafting process without making a radical change to the system. 2) New items to be used in the system. 3) Player created items possible, with two ways of handling this. A) A set of menus where you select the effects of the item to be made and a set of tables draws up the plans. Or B) you submit your plans to the GM/Dev etc and they create the item when they add the appropriate data to the crafting tables. Option A, has the advantage that you select the available options for plan creations and the players decide what they want in a particular item. It is flexible but would require a more comprehensive dataset to be created, Option B needs less data upfront but does require continual human intervention to work.

TomT

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Re: Crafting -- Books, Blueprints etc.
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2007, 04:05:26 am »
Thanks rtrentc

1)   A crafting book section or container in inventory has been discussed before.  Once we get a fair amount of crafting books out there we will consider this functionality.
2)   There is already a complex skill requirement associated with each craft book.  As you become more skilled in one or more skills additional crafts will become possible.  We are also working on giving the player more crafting infomation by way of the crafting books.
3)   No crafting menus will be used in Planeshift.  We worked hard to avoid the “collect ingredients and push button” type crafting that is used in many other games.  We hope we have made crafting a more natural process.  Some additional weapon type enhancements will be possible in the future based on special ingredients and processes. 
4)   Player created crafting books sound interesting and is possible.  The books and all the parts are just data.  But at this point we are focusing on creating more of our own crafts that will work within the context of the existing PS settings.

rtrentc

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Re: Crafting -- Books, Blueprints etc.
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2007, 11:54:13 pm »
Just wanted to respond to your wanting to keep the crafting as natural as possible. Well, one thing that I find very unnatural about this whole proccess is that if I was a blacksmith, I wouldn't take x amount of iron and say what can I make from it, I would say i want to make this, what do I need to use. That is why I was leaning towards either a menu or item specific crafting books. Since your not going to put in an additional menu and I can understand why cause it would make it more of a pushbutton affair, I think replacing the book of blades with books for each sword type would be better.  Cause I really think it should be taken from the view of I want to make this. Now do I have the right ingredients. And books for each type of weapon would do that. You could even make it so that one has to be higher in levels to make use of such specific books.  And if you wanted to keep the book of blades, you could give the reasoning that you needed such larger amounts of steel stock (cause your going to get into large amounts if you support a lot of different classes of weapons) because your low skill means you waste a lot of the metal just getting what you want out of it.

Think of this in coding terms. Which makes more sense. I have an idea I want to implement, and I look to see what classes are available and if needed create new classes. Not I have a bunch of classes now what sort of program can I make from these.

Nikodemus

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Re: Crafting -- Books, Blueprints etc.
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2007, 12:55:11 am »
It would be nice if we sgould get "blueprints" for every wapon and tehnique
there would be still books, and we would get them as now, only they would contain the most basic blueprints and with time, we could add to this book the more rare we find. A smith could protect his knowledge this way, or teach others, only they would have to get their blueprints too.



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rtrentc

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Re: Crafting -- Books, Blueprints etc.
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2007, 03:06:35 am »
Basic Blueprints is where you would start.  Do you see what I mean when I say that there needs to be a way to make it, I start with an idea as to what weapon, shield etc I am going to make and I have to figure out how to make it. Not I start throwing a bunch of ingredients together and see what sticks. The latter is how I feel it is working now. I feel like its, Lets take 6 stocks and see what I get. Not I want to make a shortsword, so I get instructions in how to make a shortsword then practice the production of said weapon. Of course I know that I will never see the flexibility of a producing something that I have in a live roleplaying game with a live GM to oversee the entire game but it should be more of Idea  --> ingredients --> product. Not Ingredients --> see what I make --> product. Also it should be more of I am making this weapon this way, not this specific set of ingredients produces this weapon. The knowledge and the blueprints needs to be the main determining factor, not the number of stocks. Take for instance the Long Sword and the Katana. Suppose that both are the same in length, and weigh about the same. The way they are made is really what matters here. In otherwords you can have several weapons that use approx the same amount of steel to make (or bronze or iron), but the proccess for each would be different, The shape would change, the quenching technique would change etc. Without using somesort of menu system, you are going to have to need a book to be put in mind to control whats being made. And in a sense that is a menu system. Your just moving books around instead of using a pulldown menu. If I had the book for shield making then I would use it instead of the book of blades to make a shield. So in a sense I have used a menu. Its still menu driven. You just made the menu 1- the book, 2 -- the number of stocks. I am still doing a lookup in a table. How is that not collect ingrediants. Push button.

Ideally, you should break down a blade into its structural definanitions.  Blade -- Length, Width, Thickness, Curve.  Single Edge, Double edge, Point only.  Grip -- Straight with simple cross guard. Straight with Cirular Bell Guard. Straight with a curved guard from end of handle to begining of blade (like the sabre's grip). Straight with Cross guard and sword breakers. (The last two guards being the most complex). From the options chosen you would get a specific blade type, Add in special ingredients and techniques to get the more esoteric weapson such as your dark daggers or silver weave. See where I am going. Idea --> ingreadients --> product. The player has to start with an idea. They have to have an idea of what sort of blade they are making. Maybe I am making this too complex but this makes sense to me as opposed to the method you have in place.

Kaerli

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Re: Crafting -- Books, Blueprints etc.
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2007, 03:45:13 am »
Well stated.  This sounds like a good concept for crafting.