Author Topic: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist  (Read 4662 times)

emeraldfool

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2007, 02:08:57 pm »
A peasant is causing trouble in a bar. He's rather drunk, and he's knocking over beer and insulting folk. He's unarmed and unarmoured, but rather strong so the guards are still called.

The guard walks in, sporting a full set of finely polished steel knight's armour and a big magic claymore. He spots the peasant and moves grimly towards him.
But then he steps on a puddle of beer that was spilled earlier - it's in the shadow of the table, so it's completely invisible.

The guard's feet slip right out from under him and he falls backwards slamming his head hard on the table and stonework floor. The razor-sharp, magic claymore clatters to the floor next to him as the guard lies dazed on the ground.

The strong peasant then staggers to the guard, picks up the sword, stands over him and plunges it into the guard's chest. The highly trained, heavily-equipped guard is now very dead due to the magic claymore lodged in his chest (which magically pierced the armour, obviously).




That's a perfectly logical occurance. Highly trained people die of freak accidents all the time. Just look at Steve Irwin.


But, of course, that would never happen in an RPG.

Idoru

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2007, 02:44:42 pm »
I have a dagger and no armor, you are a knight, full armor and a VERY big heavy sword.

I charge at you, you swing your sword but I dodge it. you are busy following through with your swing and now youre screwed, im too close to you for you to swing at me again. I stab you through your helmets eye holes (kinda thinking there is a proper name for the ;)).

Another example of short swords being more effective is a Gladius it helped conquer europe, and used it quite effectively against spears and other longer weapons.

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swordsbane

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2007, 02:46:38 pm »
A peasant is causing trouble in a bar. He's rather drunk, and he's knocking over beer and insulting folk. He's unarmed and unarmoured, but rather strong so the guards are still called.

The guard walks in, sporting a full set of finely polished steel knight's armour and a big magic claymore. He spots the peasant and moves grimly towards him.
But then he steps on a puddle of beer that was spilled earlier - it's in the shadow of the table, so it's completely invisible.

The guard's feet slip right out from under him and he falls backwards slamming his head hard on the table and stonework floor. The razor-sharp, magic claymore clatters to the floor next to him as the guard lies dazed on the ground.

The strong peasant then staggers to the guard, picks up the sword, stands over him and plunges it into the guard's chest. The highly trained, heavily-equipped guard is now very dead due to the magic claymore lodged in his chest (which magically pierced the armour, obviously).




That's a perfectly logical occurance. Highly trained people die of freak accidents all the time. Just look at Steve Irwin.


But, of course, that would never happen in an RPG.

I wish that could happen in an rpg.  Mostly luck is simulated by a die roll that is a catch-all for all those variables we can't take the time and effort to define.  On the other hand, luck didn't play as big a role as your example would lead us to believe.  It wasn't luck that made the puddle invisible, and maybe someone with sharper eyes would have seen it and avoided it, or maybe a guard who had more experience in bar fights would have known where not to step, or maybe he might have chose not to go in fully armored because metal feet slip more.  A lot of experience related things might have kept him alive.  Luck came into play when he stepped on the puddle.  It also might have been possible that he wouldn't have fallen when he stepped on it.  He might have had enough experience in a fight or a good enough sense of balance that he might only have stumbled, or if he fell he might have kept hold of his sword because hey... in a fight, people might fall, and the more experience he had in fighting, the better his grip might have been.

In your example, the guard didn't die necessarily die in spite of his experience or because of bad luck.  He may have died because he was inexperienced in that kind of situation.  He might also have died simply due to dumb luck.  But if you are exerienced or well trained, you are able to take better advantage of good luck and reduce the consequences of bad luck.

*edit*

I have a dagger and no armor, you are a knight, full armor and a VERY big heavy sword.

I charge at you, you swing your sword but I dodge it. you are busy following through with your swing and now youre screwed, im too close to you for you to swing at me again. I stab you through your helmets eye holes (kinda thinking there is a proper name for the ;)).

Another example of short swords being more effective is a Gladius it helped conquer europe, and used it quite effectively against spears and other longer weapons.


Point of fact, the gladius was used as a SECONDARY weapon by the Romans.  They would first lodge their spears in the enemies shields to slow them down and when(if) they got close enough, they would use the gladius to stab at close quarters where the spear is less effective.  It was not effective against spears on its own.  It was effective against spears because of the way the Romans used their own spears (ie as one weapon in an arsenal, not their only weapon as a lot of armies did in those days) I highly doubt that if the Roman front line legions had entered battle armed with ONLY the gladius, that they would have conquered Europe.

Also, you are using the gladius in combat between armies to justify the effectiveness of a dagger used in one on one combat.  The two are entirely different.  Besides that you skipped passed one basic assumption in your example:  "You swing your sword but I dodge it"  That is an assumption that you need to define.  Why did he miss?  Did he miss because he's unfamiliar with fighting unarmored opponenents with knives?  Did he miss because he misjudged his swing?  Did he miss because he's unfamiliar with his weapon?  He could have hit you in spite of you dodging.  You are trading increased mobility for less protection.  He is trading mobility for increased protection.  With a dagger unless you DO hit some place vital, like under the arm or the thigh or the eyelet, then he is pretty much invulnerable to your weapon.  If he's any good wth his sword, he pretty much only has to hit you once.

Who's going to win?  Look we can all come up with specific situations where one person X with Y weapon will have an advantage over person A with B weapon.  If the argument is: does the length and speed of a weapon matter? then the answer is: yes.  If the argument is does the length and speed of a weapon decide the battle? then the answer is no.  Training and experience is the biggest influence on the outcome of a battle, and NOT just with the kind of weapon you happen to be using.  It's using it in combat, whether its single combat or battles between armies, in using it against other types of weapons, fighting in different terrain, in different armor, weather, moods, degrees of health.  Some of these things we can't simulate in a game, others we can.  Anything we can't simulate is turned into a die roll and collectively called "luck"

[ Please avoid making one post right after the other in the same thread. Just "Modify" your first post to add more information. --Karyuu ]
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 05:06:43 pm by Karyuu »

Nurahk

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2007, 03:58:08 pm »
I'd just like to say, that I am thoroughly enjoying watching people talk about stuff they probably, when it comes right down to it, have no real idea about.

Now, proceed.

By the way, the pillum was more of a javelin than a spear, correct me if I'm wrong of course.  Made of soft metal so that it would render the opponents shield useless.

Get in close with a dagger and you win.

Idoru

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2007, 04:29:36 pm »
Wasn't the pilum actually designed to bend so that those that missed shields (or more importantly people) couldn't be picked up and thrown back?

I would think that in the heat of battle the bard on the end of the pilum would stop someone removing it for a shield (or more importantly a person).

And yup, we are obviously talking about a subject we know very little about, I doubt many of us have had a duel to the death in RL ;)

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swordsbane

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2007, 04:52:50 pm »
I'd just like to say, that I am thoroughly enjoying watching people talk about stuff they probably, when it comes right down to it, have no real idea about.

Now, proceed.

By the way, the pillum was more of a javelin than a spear, correct me if I'm wrong of course.  Made of soft metal so that it would render the opponents shield useless.

Get in close with a dagger and you win.

If it was used to throw, the momentum would almost always make it break off in the opponents shield, and yes, it was designed that way.  When used in battle, that was always the goal, but it didn't always work that way.  The gladius was long enough to reach past your shield and into the opponent, but if you're in formation with an army, a dagger is not what you'd want to use.  In order to make it an effective weapon, you'd have to break formation, which was a tremendous advantage.  Otherwise every army would have used daggers in battle.  They didn't.  There are very good reasons for that.

In one on one combat, there is also the law of diminsihing returns.  My favorite weapons is a sword somewhere between the length of a broadsword and that of a short sword.  It doesn't put you at much of a disadvantage with opponents with heavier blades and it still gives you reach, plus its lighter.  If the blade is too short, the required skill to use it effectively goes up faster than the inherent advantage the extra speed would give you.  Also a smaller weapon becomes primarily a stabbing weapon because it's not heavy enough to slash against an opponent with any sort of armor.  To use a short sword against an enemy with a longsword requires you have to know what you're doing and play your advantage against his disadvantage.  To win against the same opponent when all you have is a dagger, you have to be better.

On the other hand, it doesn't take much skill to be dangerous with a polearm, except the problem is you're a danger to most people around you and probably yourself if you don't know what you're doing.  It's fine for an unskilled fighter to use a spear or pitchfork to keep a wild animal at bay, but it's quite another to try to defeat a warrior who knows what he's doing.

I'm no expert.  I expect someone who's good with a dagger could wipe the floor with me, but if he's an expert in knife fighting and has never run into anyone with a sword, I'll probably wipe the floor with him, because I HAVE used a sword against a knife.

Idoru:  The pilum didn't have a barb on it, but it was designed to snap when thrown and usually did even if you missed.  I suppose an enemy could have used the end (which was around two feet give or take) but it wasn't going to be as effective as the weapon they already had.

On the subject of experience, no I've never duelled to the death in RL, but I've had plenty of brutal experience with the advantages and limitations of a wide variety of weapons.  I have the scars and memories of nasty bruses to punctuate that experience.  I've used pole arms, swords, maces, axes, daggers, shields, worn a suit of plate armor in battle (although I've never rode a horse in one) fought with and without a shield, used two weapons and one, been in knife fights, one on one, wild melees, ambushes, battles with tactics and strategy and I know a little Akido.  I've fought opponents who know fencing (florentine which is actually a very good style) and competition fencing (which isn't) Kendo, Karate, Akido and used and had used against me a variety of unclassified weapons (including a rather ingenuous two bladed dagger designed for throwing)

As I said, I'm not an expert (although I have been up against experts), but I do know something of what I'm talking about.

Zan

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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2007, 08:40:39 pm »
The pilum did have a thicker head on a thiner metal pole so that it would stick in the wooden shields and was unable to be removed. The handle was made out of wood but a large part of the pilum was made out of .. bronze I think. The wood could be removed but the bronze, even if it was hammered on in force would usually bend. End result a shield with a pilum sticking out of it has become utterly unmanageable. That was their purpose, disabling the enemy's shields. Short swords were 'in fashion' in that era but them being short had probably nothing to do with Rome being so powerful. After the romans these swords practically vanished and were replaced by longer weapons which seemed to be more effective.

We're really dwelling off topic though .. we should be talking about Planeshift here :P

And I agree with swordsbane on his last sentence .. I'm also no expert but I wouldn't be talking about something I don't know much about.
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emeraldfool

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2007, 02:46:31 pm »
I'd just like to say, that I am thoroughly enjoying watching people talk about stuff they probably, when it comes right down to it, have no real idea about.

Haha, no kidding. When was the last time you visited 100 B.C. or the Dark Ages and got into a fight?
I mean, I'm not denying that you know everything and probably have, in fact, invented a time machine, I'm just saying that you can't expect us, with our inferior intellects, to come out with something that compares to your vast experience.

:P



Anyway, Swords - my point is not the actual example I used, my point is that there's things that a skill level, a weapon-quality index and a dice-roll can't account for. If we're going for finely detailed realism here, we should at least come up with a system other than "I hit you, you hit me, I'm more skilled so you die."

[ Edited for language. --Karyuu ]

Zan

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2007, 03:42:01 pm »
Anyway, Swords - my point is not the actual example I used, my point is that there's things that a skill level, a weapon-quality index and a dice-roll can't account for. If we're going for finely detailed realism here, we should at least come up with a system other than "I hit you, you hit me, I'm more skilled so you die."

Agreed! But what system?
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themule

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2007, 03:28:10 am »
Is it confirmed that quality 300+ weapons are forbidden? I know it was so in the old crafting system, because they were made due to bug-abusing i think.

But in the new system, quality of stock is completely different from before (i was barely able to make quality 10 stock before, now i can make quality 200 stock at the first attempt).

Today I made 3 daggers, quality 114/114, quality 203/203, quality 731/731. I don't think I abused of any bug. Anyway, what should I do now? Is there a way to decrease quality? I tried stacking them but it doesn't seem to work. Or should I just sell the better one to NPCs?

Quality varies a lot during the crafing process, it's close to impossible to hit 300/300. One may start with low quality steel (i'd have to remelt some stock in order to lower the quality, or hope for some very low quality to appear so i can stack them), but quality increases during the process in unpredictable ways.

emeraldfool

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2007, 05:18:12 pm »
Anyway, Swords - my point is not the actual example I used, my point is that there's things that a skill level, a weapon-quality index and a dice-roll can't account for. If we're going for finely detailed realism here, we should at least come up with a system other than "I hit you, you hit me, I'm more skilled so you die."

Agreed! But what system?

That's the million dollar question. In order to make it 100% realistic you'd have to remove the RPG elements almost entirely - training a skill would allow you to learn new 'techniques', but wouldn't effect the actual skill's performance. In other words, it would be up to the skill of the player in how he uses what he learns, rather than the character.
Then you would need about 50 other systems within one combat system including environment interaction, 'accidents', wound effects, stress levels, physical exertion (including muscle fatigue, blood pressure - things other than simply 'stamina'), morale (or how 'scared' you are of your opponent), etc.

But that could get very not fun for people, especially the coders :P But also the newbies and anybody else who aren't interested in a micro-management game... 

jonandtice

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2007, 05:18:03 pm »
Most of the swords I've made are over 400/400.  It's hard for me to make a sword under 300/300 now.  So you guys want to tell me that I can't have and sell my 400/400's while there are people running around with iron shortswords and silverweave?  Oh, You want me to sell them to an npc?  OK, here Harnquist what can I get for this shortsword?  WHAT? 160 tira?  I would have to buy my stocks for 16 tria or just mine for practicaly nothing!  I might as well just mine gold and loot.  This game just got really pointless.  Oh, what's that?  Ah, roleplay! Yay!  Maybe I will just pretend that Harnquist is paying me more.
This "problem" has been around for a while.  If we aren't alowed to have that high quality weapons than why the heck are we able to make them?

Parallo

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2007, 05:27:17 pm »
My goodness! Give the people a break! Its a pre-alpha! Is the only reason you play to make weapons and sell them so that your virtual money counter will go up?
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

jonandtice

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2007, 05:32:24 pm »
I guess you're right.  I'm lucky to be crafting anything at all in a pre-alpha.

Parallo

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Re: I Wish 1000/1000 weapons didn't exist
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2007, 05:34:20 pm »
I know I'm right :P

But seriously, I understand that it can be frustrating but it's to be expected. Plus even if it wasn't a pre-alpha, its still just a game. Just have patience.
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(