Author Topic: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.  (Read 2628 times)

rtrentc

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Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« on: January 09, 2007, 12:19:56 am »
Just  the other day I was  in Trasoks when the conversation went something like this.

Player 1 - I have some iron ore to sell how about 50 trias an ore. Player 2 -- I am willing to pay 20 trias an ore. Player 3 -- I will pay your 200 trias an ore. Why should you have to take a measly 20 trias and ore when you can make 240 trias an ore mining gold. So I will pay you 200 trias an ore.

Now player 2 was in my opinion offering a very high amount per ore when you consider that the npc's will buy iron ore @ 2 trias an ore. And what Player 3 stated is quite true about trias gained for effort expended. Cause you have gold just as plentiful as Iron. So you have completely disregared the laws of supply and demand.  And the only reason that you don't see people running around with a ton of gold all over them is that a) except to sell to an NPC its useless. And b) there are no jewelers.

So the only and I mean the only reason that people mine iron is to make weapons. They don't mine it to sell it to the npc's Its just not worth the effort for that.

So here is my wish. Its a simple wish.
1) figure out what each item in the game can be used for.
2) decide how plentiful it should be.
3) set npc prices to reflect this.
 
Cause based on its use and its availability, gold should sell for 1 tria or less. Even with mining 0 to 1, you can easily collect 10 gold ores. 2400 tria when sold to an npc. Way out of line with the true demand for it.

And yes I know that there are other threads in here that have covered this topic in one fashion or another, but if you want a good economy, you really need to look at usefullness of items and how plentiful you want it to be so that the price can reflect this.

So you can remove this topic if you want. I am just reminding you that all is not well and I this is one area you need to look at.

Nikodemus

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2007, 12:28:47 am »
only PS is hardly finished, and what you tell would be right if there was any use of gold ore by the players. (except selling it to NPC) when there will be use, the prices at NPCs can be set that low, that it will be hardly profitable, as pick gets used up too and need to be repaired.

But the anscient thing which is mesing up everything in almost any game is the NPCs killing and bringing their loot on the market. If this won't be restricted, we will never have good economy too.



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Idoru

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2007, 12:35:20 am »
Well, gold in the RW is pretty useless, its a given that the electronics industry uses it, but other than that I can only think of plating things to stop corrosion (and zinc is cheaper and does an adequate job) and using it to show off wealth (jewellry etc).

Maybe in Yliakum there is some underground trade for some reason that is not known to any of us lowly super-heroes.

Maybe Harnquist and Trasok just really love the stuff.

In addition, where would your income come from if you couldnt mine? Mobs would be awfully over used IMO.

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rtrentc

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2007, 12:41:43 am »
On additional note, I suggest that you do a little research online and find as much as you can that is written by Ludwig Von Mises. And check out www.mises.org. A excellent resource on austrian economics. Oh and look up Hayek as well. Those two were probably two of the best economists with a very practical viewpoint that you will come across.

John80sk

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 02:11:23 am »
Just make gold harder to mine, or require a higher level to do so, problem solved.  200 an iron ore isn't bad, and considering a crafted short sword can sell for around 20k (and considering what it hits should sell for more like 50k), the smith can make some good money as well.
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Bartholin

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2007, 05:01:29 am »
well, perhapes the limiting on gold would be best, inflation of the makets is seen already...

dont reduce the cost of gold, but rather the amount open to finding. make it more limited, raise the price giving to refiened ores (will promote crafting levels ). also..
make it easyer and quicker to get coal and iron, coal should be real easy to get.. 2 ores per dig  ;D and iron should be an ore ever other dig. gold on the other hand should be
an ore ever 5-8 digs.

thats the best i got..

umm.. sounds intresting..
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zanzibar

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2007, 06:35:14 am »
On additional note, I suggest that you do a little research online and find as much as you can that is written by Ludwig Von Mises. And check out www.mises.org. A excellent resource on austrian economics. Oh and look up Hayek as well. Those two were probably two of the best economists with a very practical viewpoint that you will come across.


Economic theories are often highly controversial and not well agreed upon.  For instance, I believe Hayek wrote that socialism ultimately leads to tyrany.  Other authors write that socialism ultimately leads to democracy and freedom.  Both camps have many supporters.

So it is not wise to label one set of economics as "Good" and another as "Bad" without noting that not everyone agrees with you.




As far as gold goes:  Gold needs to be easy to get right now so that it's easy enough to get money that people can try all the different features of the game.
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Zan

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2007, 03:33:28 pm »
Iron ore has more value than gold for players. Gold has no value except for what the NPC give for it. You'll only be able to sell gold if you go under NPC prices (not including it's very limited use in quest needed items) so the buyer can make a profit. Iron you'll be able to sell for quite a bit since it has a use in crafting. This is basic economy at work ... sure it is not what we are used to, gold being worth a whole lot more than iron but it is PS economy nonetheless.

Expect prices to change every time new content is added but a balance always comes in.

I do agree that NPCs should adapt to the economic balances that appear among players though. That NPC prices can't control player based economy is quite clear, I think .. so they should at least follow it in order to keep the appearance up that our world only has one economy. Not one for NPCs and one for Players.
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rtrentc

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2007, 04:04:06 am »
Okay i have been giving this a bit of thought. And i believe that I have thougth up a system that would actually create just one economy and not two. one for NPC's and one for Players.

Okay here are the basics.
1) Everything that an one NPC sells that NPC and/or another will buy.
     Likewise everything that one NPC buys that NPC and/or another will Sell.
2) Every NPC that sells will have stock levels that it sells from.
  2a) You can also have some of the pc's produce at a specific rate items for sale. Such as Harnquist making a specific weapon or weapons and selling them as well as the weapons he has purchased.
3) Dynamic Prices.
     Simple set of equations that will based on the product bought or sold, raise or lower the price that the npc is willing to buy or sell at. For example merchant A is buying and selling iron. For each unit of time that He hasn't had someone sell him some iron (And you can apply this not just to each merchant at a time but to all merchants at once or all merchants in one city at once), He raises the price that he will buy the iron. When some one sells him iron he will lower his buying price once the transaction has been completed. Likewise when selling iron, (if he has stock to sell), he will keep raising his selling price until someone buys. Once a sale has been made the price will be lowered. This process can be used on all items in the economy, regardless of if they are dropped items or player crafted items.

This would create a real market based economy. And the prices that players would be able to receive for mined, picked up, and crafted items would depend on how much of said items are floating around in the hands of players, and merchants. After all the more say iron ore i sell to the merchants the less i will get for that ore because the market is being saturated with ore.

(the equations you set the actuall raising and lowering amounts can be linear or non linear depending on how quickly and by how much you want your market to react to changeing levels of product in circulation.)

zanzibar

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2007, 04:12:51 am »
rtrentc, your comments belong in a new thread - not this one.



I do agree that NPCs should adapt to the economic balances that appear among players though. That NPC prices can't control player based economy is quite clear, I think .. so they should at least follow it in order to keep the appearance up that our world only has one economy. Not one for NPCs and one for Players.


Not true.  Let's say you want to lower the price of iron.  Have Harnquist sell iron for 500 trias each, and no one will buy iron from other players for more than that.  Let's say you want to raise the price of fire, frosty, and dark weapons.  Have Harnquist buy such weapons for 10,000 trias and no one will sell such weapons for less than that.
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Zan

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2007, 09:52:07 am »
Yes, Zanz. you're right NPC selling can have an influence, NPC buying hardly. Thing is there isn't much special that NPCs sell.

You did forget to add inconvenience and distance into the equation .. it is very possible that people will buy at a higher price or sell at a lower price than the NPC because they are not near to that NPC and rather save some time than tria.

If I read your comment, rtrentc. It reminds me of the game Guild Wars. There are certain rare items there like Dyes and Crafting Materials and they have merchants to buy and sell those dyes from players. You will see their prices are dynamic and vary with the supply. The more of one type of material that is sold to these merchants by players, the lower the price drops if you want to buy it from them. And the less they have the higher the prices raise.

If something like this could be implemented, NPCs having a stock that is mainly filled by players it would be very interesting I think.

I wouldn't go working with time units though, I think the system works nice enough if you just look at availability and demand.
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zanzibar

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2007, 10:43:14 am »
Price fluxuations reflect an instable economy.  I don't think it's unreasonable for the Planeshift world to have a stable economy.
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rtrentc

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2007, 05:28:07 pm »
Fluctations in price just reflect that suppy and demand are dynamic forces. The suppy of or the demand of a given item isn't static. Peoples needs, choices and desires are constantly in flux. Just take a look at the real world example of gasoline prices. These are constantly changing, not because the economy is unstable, but because the supply and the demand is in constant flux.

Zan

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2007, 06:06:42 pm »
Actually I think you both have points. Price fluctuations happen because supply and demand change .. but a changing supply and demand, especially the former points on an unstable economy. Gas prices are rising so high because of (economic) problems in the middle east and because the oil reserves are decreasing.

I do think that PS will eventually create a stable economy, even with malleable NPC prices,  but in its current state every implemented change has a large impact on the economy.
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zanzibar

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Re: Beating an Economic Dead Horse to Death.
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2007, 08:27:09 pm »
Fluctations in price just reflect that suppy and demand are dynamic forces. The suppy of or the demand of a given item isn't static. Peoples needs, choices and desires are constantly in flux. Just take a look at the real world example of gasoline prices. These are constantly changing, not because the economy is unstable, but because the supply and the demand is in constant flux.


We're talking about a medieval world.
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