Reality and Proof

[Parallo]

Its just a guess that people have spirits. A random stab in the dark at a question that doesn't need answering without basis in evidence.

[LARAGORN]

Well, you could work out the statistics if you wanted. How many times have people been known to discover this thing in the past and its been proved accurate? I would vouch for zero times. That would sort of make it as statistically impossible as reaching the moon was in 1968

Although I do think the term is always 'statistically improbable'.

Show me any of these 'statistics', probable or not. I dont think there are any 'statistical' findings on this subject.

How are we to know if some old farmer in Timbucktoo did discover the meaning of life, and when he tried to share it, everyone thought he was insane. Most theoligens wouldnt even consider listening to an uneducated country hick. The only ones who may listen to him would be The National Inquisitor, and that would only deplete his credibility more. There have been a few individuals who have claimed to have discovered the meaning of life, but have refused to share it with the world because according to them it is not the meaning of life that is the most important; It is the journey one takes to find the meaning.

Thus the common belief is that no one knows or has ever known the meaning of life. bla bla blah

* LARAGORN continues to babble as he strolls away.

[emeraldfool]

How can assumption be enough to go on for anything? Why assume anything?

There are a trillion truths that have an equal chance of being the one true truth, which means there's like a 999 billion, 999 million, 999 thousand, 9 hundred and 99 to 1 chance that you're wrong.

Just enjoy the ride, and look forward to the answers at the end. I don't understand people's desire to know life's meaning. It'll just wreck the experience, even if you DO discover the answer now, which is statistically impossible.

Any chance I can get a copy of those statistics?

I'm sorry. I'm lying; there's more than a trillion. It would take a trillion lifetimes to count up all the possibilities.

Maybe everything about Christianity is true but Jesus is actually called Jesuth.
Maybe everything about Christianity is true but Jesus actually had 12,456 hairs on his head instead of 12,455
Maybe everything about Christianity is true but Jesus was nailed to the cross with 9-inch nails rather than 5-inch. Or 8-inch rather than 6-inch.

You might say something that insignificant doesn't matter, but it still means that the 'truth' in question is really not a whole truth. And so there's a different truth for every hair on Jesus' head, and a different truth for every possible length for every hair on Jesus' head, and so on.

Right down to the world actually being created by Teletubies in the year 2000, and that the program simultaneously brainwashed us to think we actually have 2006 years of history, rather than six

There may not be 'statistics', because it doesn't bear thinking about. Religion is susceptible to human imagination, and human imagination is virtually limitless.

Are you really saying that we should worry about the meaning of life because there's a substantial chance of finding it among the lies?




P.S.

it is not the meaning of life that is the most important; It is the journey one takes to find the meaning.

That's a good point. But again, what do people really mean when they 'Journey to find the meaning of life'? I mean, how many people really go into a field to meditate and then go "Ooh, I never knew that about myself. Yay. Now, back to my accountancy job..."

You can 'find yourself' without involving religion at all.

[eldoth_terevan]

Eldoth draws "solipsism" on the blackboard, shakes his head with resignation, cracks a beer and goes back to measuring stellar parallax on his spiffy theodolite.

[LARAGORN]

I said absolutly nothing about religion, I was talking about the meaning of life.

If it "doesn't bear thinking about" then why are some cultures based on the search for it. Simply because it has no meaning to you, does not negate its existance. A tribal Indian from deep in the jungle with no contact with the rest of the world doesnt believe in other planets, all he sees are shinny things in the sky. Does that mean Mars and Pluto arent there? We all have our own beliefs from the enviriment we were raised in. Some beliefs have been accepted by most of the world because of the advanced communication technologies we now have, information and ideas are easily shared with little limitations.

* LARAGORN still babbling walks in circles

[Pizzasgood]

*Pizzasgood gets that long-winded look in his fingers as they head menacingly toward the keyboard.....

Horribly mutilated 9-foot zombie-monster things don't strike me as the religious type...

You never know.  A probably ancient dead guy who hangs out in a small cave and watches new dead people exit the world all day might well have turned mushy and philosophical.  And why does being a mutilated or 9-foot tall have to do with it? (monster is subjective, and it's the death realm so zombie is irrelevant).  I think sitting there with half your gut missing while other people enter in one piece could make someone either very violent or very sensitive.  I feel sad for the big guy 


The point I was trying to make before is that nobody really knows anything.  Your whole world could be a drug-induced hallucination.  You have no way of proving that aliens or the Men in Black haven't replaced your memory.  Neither way can be proved.  We can each insist on our versions of reality, but it doesn't accomplish anything.  Personally, I don't believe the chair that I'm currently leaning back in is imaginary, but I don't know that 100%.

As for science, it is only an approximation.  We actually don't know any of the real laws of nature, if there even are any.  This is why I'm able to have science and religion co-exist in my reality.  Just because science doesn't show proof that God exists doesn't mean he doesn't.  Science always changes in attempts to approximate reality.  Look at what Einstein did.  Newton made a great attempt, but it breaks down if you go fast enough.  Einstein tried to do a better approximation for high speeds.  It isn't perfect either.  It's like using a Reimann Sum with n=5, then going to n=10.  It still won't get the whole curve.  Thus, anything is possible.  General perceived experience says that an eagle will not shoot out of my butt tomorrow, but there is no way to prove that.

Religion (to me) is the same thing.  It's an approximation.  You can look at it in various ways depending on what your personal beliefs are, but in general it is an attempt to explain the world.  Even if you are a Christian, and you believe the words of the bible are absolute truth, it is still only an approximation.  You can't fully describe God in text, only approximate him.  (Actually, a textual description of anything is an approximation).  It probably says as much somewhere, I don't remember.

Neither of these approximations fully explains anything.  Remember the "why" question?  If you do it enough to scientist or priests, you'll probably get a "I don't know, shut up already!"

So in short, you cannot say whether spirits exist or do not in "real" life, only what you take as the truth.  You cannot efficiently argue your opinion to be more valid.  You can say that the majority supports your opinion, and that is all.



Life meaning.  Another subjective topic.  It depends on what you think life is.  You can believe we are here to be tested before being allowed to exist in God's court.  You can believe we are here to make God smile.  You can believe we are here to cultivate the planet.  You can believe we are here as punishment.  You can believe we are here because some alien biologist forgot us.  You can believe we are here because a giant turtle farted near a match, starting a big bang and leading to the evolution of humans and our superior though distant cousin the iguana.  You could even believe we are here because we are not over there.

Me, I think everybody's life has it's own purpose, which is what that person chooses it to be.  I think it is not destined, though God may have a desire for you to use it one way, and may urge you towards it.  A good general part is to be happy and spread happiness.  And to be helpful.  Most of all, to laugh.  The greater part for mine, I haven't discovered yet.  There may not be one.  I'll probably stumble across it.  I might make it to bring life to Mars (if there isn't already).  I might make it to destroy Microsoft.  Or I might make it to do the iguana a favor and exterminate our pitiful race   Nah.

I liked the bit about escaping natural selection.  I never heard that take on it before.  In a way we are still there though.  If you have some horrible problem, you are less likely to pass it down unless it doesn't kick in until late in life.  Notice I said "less likely", yes I know many people still do.  But we have still basically taken evolution into our own hands.  Technically, as part of nature, we are still following it.  Just in a different way from the others.

A note to the zealous:  I actually don't believe we evolved, though I'm far from solid on that.  However, I am perfectly accepting of it as an approximation.  Besides, just because the bible doesn't specify the inner-workings of God's mind doesn't mean he just plopped us down.  Maybe he sort of ran an "evolution simulation" in his head to skip it, or maybe we actually did evolve half-way, then he skipped us ahead.  Or maybe we did evolve completely, but God created the initial life.  Regarding the bible, the men who wrote it obviously did not know all there is to know.  They did their best at describing it.  Maybe God simplified it for them, maybe they made it up.  In the end, it makes no difference.  I believe there is a force somehow semi-responsible for my being here, who occasionally helps me out subtly.  I believe that I should strive to be "good", and that being good or bad have their consequences.  The details are fun to try to sort out, but don't matter in the end.  Not worth killing a person over different beliefs, unless those believes are so funky they involve the guy running around chasing two-year-olds with a riding lawnmower and a backpack full of granades.  Although killing may not be the way to go, that's a whole nother discussion.  But, I have to get up for Calc III tomorrow, so I'll skip that one


Back on topic, are possessions possible in the Planeshift world?  I don't know.  There are several ways it could happen:

A:  Jack's spirit could leave his body and enter Bob's.  Jack's spirit could already have been separated for some reason (death?  worse-than-death? funky spell destroyed body but preserved spirit?  Spell removed spirit?).
B:  A naturally bodiless spirit, as in a species of beast that simply has no body, possesses Bob.
C:  Spell (Dark-way probably) bends Bob to will of Jack, without Jack's spirit going anywhere.  Could simply control Bob's body, or it could influence Bob's mind, making him actually desire the things Jack wishes him to desire.
D:  Jack makes a "copy" of his spirit that enters Bob.
E:  Crazy parasite slug wraps around Bob's brain and takes over (sorry, couldn't resist...)
F:  Bob is hypnotized
G:  Bob is insane and only thinks he is being possessed.  Could be a multiple-personality type thing.


Okay, time for me to shut up and sleep.   Feel free to applaud the soothing absence of text.

[zanzibar]

I said absolutly nothing about religion, I was talking about the meaning of life.

The meaning of life is necessarily a religious discussion since material sciences cannot even begin to provide us with the answer.

[bilbous]

So philosophy cannot be separated from religion? Thus existentialism ^W is a religion?

[zanzibar]

So philosophy cannot be separated from religion? Thus existentialism ^W is a religion?

You could definately argue that the tenant that "nothing is true" is religious in nature.

[LARAGORN]

So everything is religious, my web cam is, so bow down to the allmighty web cam. How about my jar of pennies or the 2 dozen hats hanging on my wall.  One could equate religion into anything if that is there belief, and who could argue? If that is your belief, well, good for you; many others would not believe the same thing.


EDIT: since this is off topic, you are all welcome to continue this discussion Here

[Nikodemus]

LARAGORN, don't you know that everything is a creation of the God? ;P

[LARAGORN]

LARAGORN, don't you know that everything is a creation of the God? ;P

WOW, I knew there was something missing. Now I understand everything, thanks Niko

[zanzibar]

So everything is religious, my web cam is, so bow down to the allmighty web cam. How about my jar of pennies or the 2 dozen hats hanging on my wall.  One could equate religion into anything if that is there belief, and who could argue? If that is your belief, well, good for you; many others would not believe the same thing.


EDIT: since this is off topic, you are all welcome to continue this discussion Here

Hmm.  Your webcam isn't religious, but the idea you have of your webcam - the concept of webcam - could be defined as religious.  And if you have a pattern of behaviour involving your webcam, there all those who would say that would qualify as something religious in nature.

Religion is anything that involves belief.... interesting suggestion.

[Parallo]

The way that terms like fact and scientificly proven are used in this day is not going to change in this thread. When I say prove to me that god/toothfairy/flying spagetti monster exists I mean in the same way as prove that chair exists. I simply can't articulate perfectly what I mean but it should be clear given what these words are taken to mean when used in passing. When I say prove [word here] and you say 'how can you prove anything?' you're just shifting the goal posts. Saying that there are spirits is as absurd as saying that there are aleins living inside your anus planning to take over the world. No basis in 'fact' as we call it now.

[zanzibar]

The thing is that not everyone agrees on what constitutes proof.  For some people, proof means empirical evidence.  For others, proof means faith.



Personally, I think that proof though faith is silly.  It's simply "knowing through knowing".  You know that something is true because you "know" that it is true.  "It's from the gut!" or "God speaks to me." and so on - the idea that your knowledge is somehow inspired.