Reality and Proof

[zanzibar]

The statement wavelength is defined by its color is not correct, and is needlessly solipsistic. Color is the result of the wavelength as interpreted by the eye, but the condition that allows color to be interpreted to begin with is independent of the eye.

Without the brain, colour would not exist, but wavelength would.

[Datruth]

The statement wavelength is defined by its color is not correct, and is needlessly solipsistic. Color is the result of the wavelength as interpreted by the eye, but the condition that allows color to be interpreted to begin with is independent of the eye.

Without the brain, colour would not exist, but wavelength would.

It's the old... do you hear the sound of a tree fall if no one is around to hear it.
Would you see the color of red paint, if no human were around.

I think the color red does exist, even if it exists only in our mind, it exists.
You and i both agree, we see red, and our reality of red is the color we see.
And we both agree, it exists, only in the head.

Would you like to know what else only exists in our heads?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Justice, love, morality, mercy, freedom and a plethera of other emotions and ideas.
So don't think, if it exists in our head, but isn't tangible outside it, that it doesn't exist.

I can quite easily say, all those emotions exist, even if some of them are the result of chemical reactions.
I can't say though, morality, is the result of chemical reactions.

Morality would actually be, you working against your chemical reactions.
Against your inner evils, inherent in all humans, rising above them, through your ethics and morals.

So does color exist? Yes, in my opinion it does, just like justice, love, morality, and a million other emotions and ideas only exist in our heads.

~~Datruth

[Narure]

So does color exist? Yes, in my opinion it does, just like justice, love, morality, and a million other emotions and ideas only exist in our heads.

~~Datruth

I agree with you somewhat but i think colour exists more (dont ask me how that works cos i dont know) than the other examples because it is somthing that our five senses react to rather than something purely in our head.

[zanzibar]

So does color exist? Yes, in my opinion it does, just like justice, love, morality, and a million other emotions and ideas only exist in our heads.

~~Datruth

I agree with you somewhat but i think colour exists more (dont ask me how that works cos i dont know) than the other examples because it is somthing that our five senses react to rather than something purely in our head.

We react to wavelengths of light.  We do not react to colour because colour does not exist outside of our brains.



I'm leaving this thread.  Have fun kids.

[LARAGORN]

So does color exist? Yes, in my opinion it does, just like justice, love, morality, and a million other emotions and ideas only exist in our heads.

~~Datruth

I agree with you somewhat but i think colour exists more (dont ask me how that works cos i dont know) than the other examples because it is somthing that our five senses react to rather than something purely in our head.

How can you honestly say that?
color as you know it is only known by that of wich you are taught, red is nothing untill you are told it is red. Our mind notices its differences but untill we are told what it is we cannot know what to call it. Comparing color to morality is like comparing apples to transmission fluid, not even close. Morality is taught to us by our parents and the people around us in our developmental years, and it is something that is felt not something that is observed. Yes I do belive some things are geneticaly passed on but not all.

[Datruth]

So does color exist? Yes, in my opinion it does, just like justice, love, morality, and a million other emotions and ideas only exist in our heads.

~~Datruth

I agree with you somewhat but i think colour exists more (dont ask me how that works cos i dont know) than the other examples because it is somthing that our five senses react to rather than something purely in our head.

How can you honestly say that?
color as you know it is only known by that of wich you are taught, red is nothing untill you are told it is red. Our mind notices its differences but untill we are told what it is we cannot know what to call it. Comparing color to morality is like comparing apples to transmission fluid, not even close. Morality is taught to us by our parents and the people around us in our developmental years, and it is something that is felt not something that is observed. Yes I do belive some things are geneticaly passed on but not all.

So... we both... are taught, color and morality..... they are soo different... i agree


Nothing is known, untill we are taught it, i don't get your piont...., we wouldn't even know what to call light, or the sun, if we weren't taught it.
Justice wouldn't be known as justice if we weren't taught it.

We learn everything.

But i know what you mean, morality, some things are inherently wrong.
No one is born with the desire to kill.

So i understand your point to a degree.

But i have to say, color exists, we both agree on it, although it isn't tangible, it exists, just as morality, justice, truth, and a plethera of other ideals and emotions, exist.

Things don't have to be tangible to be real.
For me to percieve it, understand it, and share this understanding with Billions of people, who agree this color is red... should mean something.
And it does, it means that it exists.

I'm sorry, but i'm not going to be argueing the color red doesn't exist, just the fact that you are argueing over it, is a sign of its existance.

~~Datruth

[zanzibar]

 

But i know what you mean, morality, some things are inherently wrong.

That depends on who you ask.  Also, if you ask what they consider to be inherently wrong, you'll get different answers from different people.  Of course, you could say "They have their math, but I have the math", but do you really want to be like that?

No one is born with the desire to kill.

...  prove it.

[Idoru]

It all boils down to Schrödinger's cat IMO, just say all of the possible things are true until they are proved beyond doubt (which could be never), so, god exists, but he also doesn't. You are all figments of my imagination and you are all real, and im a figment of your imagination also.

I know that Schrödinger's cat is actually about quantum states and probabilities  but it seems (to me at least) to apply to certain aspects of this debate.

Anyway, after several thousand years of philosophy no one has yet answered any of the big questions, so I wont be holding my breath about it happening here

[swordsbane]

Color exists, light exists.  If no humans (or creatures) were around, color and light would still be there, exactly the same, but they wouldn't be called color and light.  It's not the same as morality.  Morality is a purely human construct.  It did not exist until we created it and if we were gone, it wouldn't exist anymore.  The universe keeps ticking along without our intervention, and it doesn't do morality.  It does do light, color, sound, and all the other things in physics that we named but did not create.  Color is what we call the differences between wavelengths of light.  It's there in the universe, exactly as it was before we were around to call it color, the same as it will be when we're all gone.  An alien somewhere else in the universe may call it something entirely different, but IT still exists.  It doesn't need humans.  Justice, morality, love, etc... and purely human constructs.  They did not exist before humans, and they would not exist if humans were gone, except as concepts in our books.  If those books were destroyed, so to are they.

[Peacer]

I would like to second swordsbane on that, my opinions and such goes much in what he wrote there... I would like to add something about colours... they are formed of light, the rainbow is formed because of a special reflection from the sun through something transparent.
While the colour on... your wall for example is not really red as you see it, if you take up some special (non-existant?) negative glasses to view negative colours with, you would see the actual colour of that particular wall, the reason why you see it's... let's say red... is because that that is what colour in the light that doesn't get thrown back into the atmosphere.

No one is born with the desire to kill.

...  prove it.

This is true, humans are not predators from nature therefore it isn't born with the desire to kill, we only get born with our instincts, the rest is taught from the world around us.
The reason why humans can and animals can't is because humans have the ability to understand. We understood that fire was hot, we understood that a tree was harder than our fist so we could easiler defend ourselves against those trying to kill us.

[Idoru]

the reason why you see it's... let's say red... is because that that is what colour in the light that doesn't get thrown back into the atmosphere.

That should be the other way around mate, the colour we see is the one that does get reflected and doesnt get absorbed.

[Parallo]

I can't say though, morality, is the result of chemical reactions.

Morality would actually be, you working against your chemical reactions.
Against your inner evils, inherent in all humans, rising above them, through your ethics and morals.

So does color exist? Yes, in my opinion it does, just like justice, love, morality, and a million other emotions and ideas only exist in our heads.

~~Datruth

Morality is not actually working against chemical reactions. We have the chemical reaction of guilt and shame when we do something that is not approved by people that matter to us. It just happens that the fear of that reaction works over our greed in some if not most people of the civilised world.

[Sangwa]

Humans are animals. That's science. Not much time ago (as far as geological time is concerned) there weren't human beings. Did spirits exist back then? If they did, they're nothing special, just another fact waiting to be uncovered. Human mind will adapt to anything reasonable. Two centuries ago telepathy was unthink of. Currently information travels everywhere.

Feelings and perceptions are not exclusive to humans. That's scientific as well. Animals can have fun, they can be sad and they can even take drugs. They can love and hate too.

Morality, and everything else we give concept to, is a method devised by our common conscious to develop our kind. It probably sprouted out of rituals ancestors who survived preformed. Like drinking tea and alcohol became a tradition in china and europe respectively. People did it because they felt it was right. Actually, it saved them from getting sick with fecal bacteria.

[bilbous]

You could say that morality is something invented by the ambitious to aid in controlling the masses. It certainly seems like the "immoral" rise to the top of every sector of society. You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs and you cannot reach the top without hosing people on your way. It is called politics.

[Kalika]

But anyway, how many people can rationaly say that there are spirits. People can have hullucinations. I can't remember where it was said but it was said somewhere recently in a same sort of discussion. People on cocaine experience bugs in their skin. Is that real? No. I can rationaly say I am not a homo sexual. Wait! Must be PC in my examples I can rationaly say that I am not a homo/hetro sexual. I can present evidence.

[Removed off-topic part of post. --Karyuu]

back when i lived in arkansas we lived on a piece of land where an old massacre had occured. we were in the living room and we were watching a ghost story and my mom started talking about how my aunt-uncle had a ouija (sp?) board, and then suddenly the tv turned off...and when i climbed onto my moms lap and asked if our house was haunted, the ceiling fan just somehow fell and crashed right next to me.

not to mention the house had its own private cemertary, family plot or whatever.

so, yeha...i beleive in spirits...