Reality and Proof

[Parallo]

My great uncle didn't believe in spirits. He's dead now so he learned his lesson.

[Sangwa]

Heh. Once, when I was a kid, I was at my class speaking of football with my mates and teacher. I got up to tell teacher how my team, Porto, rocked. You know those fluorescent lights? It fell right on the table I was, crashing into thousands of sharp shards. Maybe the spirits from dead Porto football players helped me. Or it was sheer luck.

[zanzibar]

I would like to second swordsbane on that, my opinions and such goes much in what he wrote there... I would like to add something about colours... they are formed of light, the rainbow is formed because of a special reflection from the sun through something transparent.

The point is that the rainbow has no colour.  It's colourless.  Colour only exists in our brain as a way of describing to our conciousness what it is we are seeing, and all we are seeing are light waves of different wavelengths.

Color exists, light exists.  If no humans (or creatures) were around, color and light would still be there, exactly the same, but they wouldn't be called color and light.

Colour is a creation of the brain.  No brains, no colour.

[Datruth]

No brains, no justice, no brains, no love, no brains, no mercy.

My point is zanzibar, you agree it exists in our brains, that should be enough for you to say it exists, period.

So it's not tangible, some of the greatest things in life arn't tangible.

~~Datruth

[zanzibar]

No brains, no justice, no brains, no love, no brains, no mercy.

My point is zanzibar, you agree it exists in our brains, that should be enough for you to say it exists, period.

So it's not tangible, some of the greatest things in life arn't tangible.

~~Datruth

*sigh*

Do you remember why I brought colour up?  It was to demonstrate that people think of things in certain absolute terms despite it not at all being true.  People think of redsocks as being red and having redness, but redness is simply the brain's way of percieving a certain wavelength of light.  However, people don't think in those terms and it even seems silly and nonsensical to them.  It's a demonstration of how important and meaningful assumptions are in terms of describing the world around them.

If you assume that god exists and that god has a certain nature, and that god is all knowing and all powerful, then you can very easily form a system of belief which is completely immune to any sort of challenge.  It's logically sound - because logic itself is simply a process of finding conclusions from a set of assumptions.  With spirits, the same applies.  It's about assumptions which are not testable.

It might seem silly to believe in something that you cannot test, but everyone does it without exception.  Every single human being believes in at least something they can't prove.  And that's why I brought up the example of colour.

[Parallo]

But we can with our sences percieve evidence of the wavelengths of light. We can percieve evidence of everything we 'know' exists. How can you logically assert that something exists just because you decree that it needs no explanation?

[eldoth_terevan]

But we can with our sences percieve evidence of the wavelengths of light. We can percieve evidence of everything we 'know' exists. How can you logically assert that something exists just because you decree that it needs no explanation?

You can't. But it is done all the time.

[Parallo]

Thats what I mean. No logical person would believe half of this tripe and yet so many do just because they're told it. Why should we let people live in ignorance and claim things that they can't explain are gods/spirits/angels/dead relatives when there are really beautifuly simple explanations for them in science.

[zanzibar]

But we can with our sences percieve evidence of the wavelengths of light. We can percieve evidence of everything we 'know' exists. How can you logically assert that something exists just because you decree that it needs no explanation?

You're assuming that your senses are a source of truth.


If you want me to prove logically that God exists, then here you go:

P1  If intuition tells me God exists, then God exists.
P2  Intuition tells me God exists.
C   God exists.

Now, you might not agree with the premises, but the system itself is 100% logically sound.

[Parallo]

P1 If intuition tells me that I must make a blood sacrifice of two goats to appease the faries in my back garden otherwise the world will  explode then its true.

P2 Intuition tells me that I must make a blood sacrifice of two goats to appease the faries in my back garden otherwise the world will  explode.

C I must make a blood sacrifice of two goats to appease the faries in my back garden otherwise the world will  explode.

There. A great example of logical reasoning.

[Datruth]

Thats what I mean. No logical person would believe half of this tripe and yet so many do just because they're told it. Why should we let people live in ignorance and claim things that they can't explain are gods/spirits/angels/dead relatives when there are really beautifuly simple explanations for them in science.

omg, we've already discussed this parallo lol.
You can't force your beliefs on others.
Look at history, when has "ENLIGHTENING" anyone helped?

Slavery in America, Destruction of the indians, Conversion of the mexicans, the crusades, THERE ARE MILLIONS OF CASES where people forced their beliefs on others.
It never turns out well.
If you have the truth, than speak about, and be done, be content with yourself.

That richard dawkins guy is opening up a can of worms when he openly attacks religion, and says in his own video he's funding research to see when religion is most susceptible in childs brains.

Please, Don't enlighten anyone, you might 100% right, and i could be totally wrong, but if we're both going to die and be forgotten, What's this need to start wars and arguments.
Clasp my hand, join us ignorant god fearing foke, and lets change the world for the better, get rid of Aids in africa, stop genocide in darfur, fix Iraq, and a MILLION other problems.
Then once our world is rid of problems... probably never, maybe you can enlighten us then.

~~Datruth

[Parallo]

This, as you so eloquently put it, "Enligtening" is actually called education. It helps people everyday.

[zanzibar]

P1 If intuition tells me that I must make a blood sacrifice of two goats to appease the faries in my back garden otherwise the world will  explode then its true.

P2 Intuition tells me that I must make a blood sacrifice of two goats to appease the faries in my back garden otherwise the world will  explode.

C I must make a blood sacrifice of two goats to appease the faries in my back garden otherwise the world will  explode.

There. A great example of logical reasoning.

Exactly! 

[Parallo]

You baffle me.

[zanzibar]

You baffle me.

Logic is simply a process that guides you in moving to conclusions from a set of premises or assumptions.  A system can be completely logical even if it's based on false premises.