Daggers... Too Powerful for Small Sticks of Metal?

[Silavur]

I agree that not alot can be done about daggers and their speed to slash ratio. I took me a while as a sword user to accept this, but I have.  I still had a nagging feeling that there was an unfair advantage to them though. After a while, it struck me that the dagger has too far a range. It strikes from a ridiculous distance for such a short length of blade. And in a Silverweave duel, it has the supreme advantage at being the first to strike at a similar range to that of a sword or axe. Is this a too fine of a detail to change or compensate for in the next update?

[zanzibar]

You only need what?  Two, three inches of blade to kill someone with a single stab?

If you actually land a hit with a dagger, then I don't see a problem with a one hit kill.  The problem is that if someone else has their swords at the ready, they should have an added defensive modifier.  Presently, that modifier isn't included in the game, but it will be eventually.

[Silavur]

Errrm..... /me points at the range idea.   That was my major point. Their range is too similar to a swords. If I am running directly at you with a sword, and you are running at me with a dagger, I should be able to reach you before you reach me with similar skill levels, even if the dagger is faster.

[Gharan]

Technically the sword would be heavier though giving the dagger wielder quicker movement.

It does need work though :]

[Silavur]

* Silavur sighs and points again   Weight would factor into the speed of the weapon. But speed refers to striking speed. The dagger should be faster aye, but if it quickly strikes the air in between you and the person slashing their sword into your throat.... then that doesn't matter.

[Nikodemus]

Yeah, the longer weapon generally hits faster. It would work in PS better, if after attacking, you char would move to the target, and hit as soon as in range. Then the longer the weapon, the sooner you hit your enemy. After this the speed factor starts matter and the rest of the attacks goes as currently.
This is partially right, because sword vs dagger combat is far more complicated. But it give some image of what should be changed.
Currently after pressing attack you have to wait the time it is for the speed ration of weapon you use. I think it is mainly to stop even bigger hit and run tactic exploiting and being friendly to lagging people.

Further, the "one hit kills" rule is right, but not in PS for now. There should be much more parrying, dodging and similiar. Usually this is represented by the damage, but since most people refuse to see it this way and want damage to be like health, things gets complicated and thus more complicated system is needed. With simple system, like now, a fight is a joke.

Silavur, all this is known already, there were numerous posts about it, but if you want you may make another one. The system, as the whole game is being worked on, but it isn't happening really fast.

[Shimmabuku]

     Daggars like the Sai were designed to hook the enemy's sword, or other weapon, causing it to be jammed, while the other daggar was free to deliver a death blow. The sai was so effective, that the samurai began to carry it. Daggars like these were a perfect match for anyone with a sword. The only problem was that it didnt offer anywhere near as much power over mechanical advantage as a sword or axe. This ment that daggar weilders had to be prescice in their attacks. Daggar-weilders had to know every point of the body that could be punctured for a one-hit-kill.

    In the game, Daggars could be employed similarly. The higher your level in the daggar attribute, the more of a percent chance you have of scoring a death blow like this. The added overall damage of a daggars critical hits and non-critical hits per minute  compared to a swords damage per minute on the same level should be about equal. The Daggars would just be based more on chance and less on the points you have on the daggar attribute.

[Garile]

hmmm Discusions like this are so pointless most of the time becuase of the simple fact that we dont have any people with experience. Also there are simply to many variants in swords and daggers to just throw them all on one heap. Tactics that may be true for a longsword will most of the time not apply for a shortsword obviously.

Do shortswords really have a range much larger then a dagger? In comparisen to a longsword I think  it's nearing nitpicking.

Also it's impossible to tell for someone who has never wielded a weapon how much "bonusses" a daggeruser gains when becoming an expert with the weapon. Definately the fact that expert martial artist useally chose different weapons then a normal sword would imply that a normal sword has several disadvantages at the expert levels atleast.

The sword is ofcourse a simple metal club sharpened to be more deadly. It is the massproduced weapon of choice and massproduced weapons are useally not the best weapons, just the weapon easiest to learn how to use.

[Shimmabuku]

I have 10 years of japanese weapon/kumite training. Not all that much compared to an expert, but prolly more than most people here. Anything besides japanese weapons, Im not farmilliar with, however.

Shortswords usually have a larger range than daggars because they are heavier in the blade, and have more of a mechanical advantage while swinging. Thrust-wise, it all depends on the hilt for a shortsword. The more weight backing the blow, the more damage done. Daggars' power comes from the user's own strength.

Swords themselves are used because, like you said they are easy to produce and easy to learn. But they can be alot better than other weapons depending upon the skill of the user. Like If we gave an expert pilot an old WWI Biplane, and have some hobo off the streets a WWII airplane. Who would win.

[Garile]

Glad to hear some of us have experience Shimmabuku *smiles* 

I mean hard to make things realistic if we are not even sure what that is

[Nikodemus]

    Well, In Japan, the people noticed that their warriors were often caught in a battle in which the enemy had a sword and all that the defendant had was a daggar. This is how the greatest daggar ever was invented: The Sai. Daggars like the Sai were designed to hook the enemy's sword, or other weapon, causing it to be jammed, while the other daggar was free to deliver a death blow. The sai was so effective, that the samurai began to carry it. Daggars like these were a perfect match for anyone with a sword. The only problem was that it didnt offer anywhere near as much power over mechanical advantage as a sword or axe. This ment that daggar weilders had to be prescice in their attacks. Daggar-weilders had to know every point of the body that could be punctured for a one-hit-kill.

That sounds like a posibility for a custom weapon. Probably another thing for devs to base ther ideas about new weapons in Yliakum.
But this may not count for every dagger currently in the game. There is no dagger which is shaped like this and so what you said can't count. But yeah.

[Zan]

Samurai carrying sai ... they were rice planting tools Very effective in the hands of the farmers that constantly used them day in, day out but I haven't heard of samurai fighting wars with them. A sai isn't quite what I'd call a dagger either, it's an unique weapon which can be very effective against a sword but still not useful in full scale battles because of the short reach. The use of daggers is limited to one on one duels without much armor being in the way.

I'd say keep the weapons as they are but make armor a more important factor. If a dagger goes up against someone clad in medium armor they should have seriously reduced damage/chance of hitting. Different weapons have different uses .. that's what's missing in PS. No one weapon is allpowerful.

[Shimmabuku]

Well of course daggers are impractical in scale battles. They were used soley for close quarters, self defense. An enemy with armor isually had some gaps or weak spots in the armor that could be prenetrated.  But One-on-one is a dagger's specialty. If your fighting two people, you're screwed unless your really really good.  Unlike a good old hammer, where you can swingit around a couple of times and the enemies are all dead.

I think Daggers can be deployed as a game aspect effectively if we keeps things like this in mind. Only good for one on one, close quarters situations. Works best if enemy has armor that you cant puncture.  Better for defense than anything. The only problem is ( as Nikedoems said) Not all daggars are developed like the sai, which could bring up a problem with the whole "Good for self defense" thing. 

I think we should leave it as it began:
High attack rate, little damage.
So other weapons could basically be equal, but have advantages in different situations which, I guess,  is the roots of a weapon system in any MMO.
And also like Nike said, some custom weapons could give you a defense or attack bonus becasuse of it's shape.  Just a thought.

[Narure]

I think range is important, i mean when we have pole arms is it really a good idea to have daggers hitting at the same range as them? They lose their main advantage.

[Shimmabuku]

Yeh, you're right. Range is also an advantage in combat. So maybe We would have to have a 3 way weapon balance system.
Speed, power, and range.

Daggers  being fast speed, mediem to small damage and small range.
Swords Being medieum power, medieum speed and medieum to long range.
Axes being Medieum-high power, medieum-low speed, and medieum range.
Hammers being High power, Slow speed, and medieum-high range.
Other long objectt like spears being: medieum power, medieum speed, High range.

Or something like that. I know in some games, every weapon class has a few sub-skills, like thrusting damage, slashing damage, blocking power, etc.