All hail the collapse of the economy!

[eldoth_terevan]

Last night was real sad. What is sadder is that this condition has existed for a long time. Some of the people I see and hear complaining about cheaters are the ones who were selling suspicously cheap weapons this past weekend.

GMs have been informed based on my information twice in the last month, but they already knew, and the condition persisted...

I really hope this condition has been fixed. I really hope the wipe is here at last. It really needs to happen now. No partial rollbacks, no money wipes, no weapon wipes. FULL wipe.

Hobby project or not, test project or not: people put their lives into this game. The condition that allowed this bug to exist was based on improper coding. Don't rail at me about this being a test or a hobby. This is not a hobby project any longer, no matter what the disclaimers say.

Attempting to control information, instead of fixing problems or making a system that the problem cannot occur in from the start, does not work. Will never work.

I want the wipe. My friends and I are ready to start over from scratch. What we do not want to do is keep playing something where the exploits are built in and not addressed until the last possible minute while the players who are exploiting it walk around with a 'chosen one' attitude and then engage in moral posturing to other players and on these forums.

The wipe must come. Until it does, there is no point to playing. I am sorry if I sound depressed, this game and many of the players have made me very sad this last week.

Be excellent to one another...

[Roahn]

At this point a wipe would be completely useless until they fix the bug that allowed this to happen. It was reported months ago, but instead of fixing the bug, the devs have spent their time adding in even more glyphs with spells that a) don't work, b) require a level much higher than can be trained to without using exploits, or c) work but are useless.

I appreciate the work that the devs do, for free and all. The game has many good points. But I think they should concentrate on fixing the heinous bugs first, and fixing what is already there, before adding even more broken things.

Here are some examples:
Mac client problems: I haven't seen any of my Mac-using friends in PS since 3.017 came out months ago.
Why are there so many weapons with fancy names that can't be equipped without gulping potions or using exploits? Change this!
Meteor requires 40 in Red Way, but you can't even train that high. Also it does less damage than an Energy Arrow, yet takes about 4 times as long to cast, making it useless.
Freeze, Weakness and many other spells are uselessly underpowered. Also you can't loot a monster you kill with this magic.
Healing Flash: Requires 80 crystal way, but 30 is as high as you can train.
Rock armor: does nothing as far as I can tell
Defensive Wind: does nothing as far as I can tell
In my opinion, the ONLY useful spells are Arrow, Missile, Strength, Life Infusion and Flame Burst.
The arena is CRAMMED with monsters and most of the good-looting rogues are on one set of stairs. Yet other areas, like BD, are completely devoid of monsters.

Just my two trias.

Devs, please fix the dup bug, THEN do a wipe if necessary, THEN fix the above bugs/problems, before adding even more useless features.

- Roahn

[lordraleigh]

No that is not the point, the point would be that if you role-play abilities that are in the game which you do not bother to acquire, you are little better than a god-modder. In addition, without people actually doing the training the developers will never know what is broken and what works well. Yes, this is a game that stresses role play and if all you do is "play pretend" you are  unlikely to get much negative feedback unless you get too wild with your imagination, but, this is a game in development and as such needs people who are willing to use the functionality that is provided. This is, of course my personal opinion.

I bothered to acquire what is already existing (Lah'ar and Ranged Weapons can't be acquired) so IC-wise I will consider my characters as their state before the wipe.The way abilities are currently acquired in game is far from good(Kill rogues with a sword to get enough progression points to level up in Mining, etc.). Actually, any wipe can be classified as fully OOC from my point of view(Trying to give IC reason for it like "Laanx Freaked out and strucked down every living being in Yliakum" won't make sense), so if not OOCly training your characters to return to their previous IC state is godmodding, I prefer to be a "godmodder" than a OOC powerleveller to beat others in duels(Anyway I hardly engage into Roleplayed combat with other players). Until officially announced no wipes will come, I will not train or mine and will Play and "pretend" the consequences of the wipes are OOC(As are the consequences of unbalances and bugs that make wipes necessary), and this decision is definitive, regardless of pressure or criticism, period.

Anyway I'm not hired to test this game so why should I do something I am not voluntarily willing to do instead of having fun(If that's what the devs expect from the players, testing instead of having fun with Planeshift, there are other games under development where other things are expected)? I give support when I occasionally find something flawed that wasn't reported yet, but I am a gamer that likes roleplaying first, not a beta-tester running around OOCly and doing things to challenge the limits of the engine and of the database.

By the way, it is not something to worry about, as there will be always people that are willing to actively support the development of Planeshift instead of having fun, and those that have fun on testing intensely the features or working in development as well, but I am not one of these.

Attempting to control information, instead of fixing problems or making a system that the problem cannot occur in from the start, does not work. Will never work.

Yes, and Microsoft development of OSes and their policy on critical security flaws is the proof over it. I think such things(critical bugs) should be priority over adding new content, like those questionably out of style(This isn't a "Medieval Viking Setting") horned helmets or those "just for decoration" useless shields and the glyphs mentioned by Roahn.

The wipe must come. Until it does, there is no point to playing. I am sorry if I sound depressed, this game and many of the players have made me very sad this last week.

Sad indeed, and there is no point to playing while waiting for the countdown and seeing new characters as millionaires for me too. Right now my actions related to Planeshift will focus on the betterment of the backgrounds of my characters, improving the settings for the YRM to make it even better inserted into PS Settings(A change on its name may come as well if thought out as better to make it more convincing, although the word "Republic" came from before Middle Ages in Real World), writing for the "Roleplay(Communitive Storywriting)" and other out of game things.

[emeraldfool]

No that is not the point, the point would be that if you role-play abilities that are in the game which you do not bother to acquire, you are little better than a god-modder.

That's bullcrap. Smashing monsters is the only way to get better at playing musical instruments or picking locks!? That makes no sense at all! It'd be better to actually RP that you're training, rather than go off into the arena for days at a time and kill monsters to somehow increase your mining proficiency...

[bilbous]

Last I looked killing monsters was not the only way to get pp's, it is just the quickest. Playing instruments does not appear to be implemented yet and while picking locks may be there are no locks to pick. If you want to be a miner, create your character with a parent who is a master miner, as far as I can tell training mining is not terrifically useful yet anyway as rank 10 or so is sufficient to be reasonably successful and can be acquired (more or less) in character generation.

Character generation can give you significant levels of many untrainable, skills certainly enough to role-play some kind of mastery of them. Just don't expect to come up to me and role-play a win in a duel if I have max proficiency in a weapon and you have none in any. I will laugh at you. Of course I will know you have none because you are trying to roleplay something that is in the game and should be acted out as opposed to just being faked. If you think role play is nothing but who can talk faster why do you need anything but a chat channel anyway? All I ever tried to suggest was that some of these things are in the game and you should use them to lend credence to your pre-suppositions.

[Garile]

hmm just have an item and money wipe. Making sure to also reset the server making sure stashes don't work.

Should be enough. RPwise I have to say I don't like wipes that wipe stats, becuase it means my character would suddenly be weaker. I have been roleplaying my character to become more confident with the dagger as I slowly but steady did level her.

To the ones who say the wipe doesn't matter becuase it's only a beta or alpha or whatever. Thats BS and you know it. With that argument you wouldn't need a wipe at all, becuase afterall why have one? It's only a beta or alpha isn't it? Suck it up

[bilbous]

A full character wipe would be a little problematic but I think will eventually be necessary, maybe not right now. If you are going to have a money/item wipe I think it has to be complete because if you make it 100k tria and I have 50 accounts which is not impossible I can still have an insane amount of money available to me while you do not. If all cash and items are removed then everyone will be in the same boat. If you are not going to ensure that some balance is restored there does not seem to be much purpose to a wipe at all.

What ... Am I still talking? better get to work before I get fired..........

[Tolol]

Please correct me if I'm wrong ...

But isn't it like the wipe has already happened ? 

In our heads and hearts ?

This threads shows much to me and I hear (read) much sadness and bitterness about what has happened the last night.

We were wiped without a wipe ... that's what it looks like to me ...

Tolol (also a bit sad)

[emeraldfool]

I'm not sad. I'm just pissed that I missed it...

[drah]

I think it's about time we stop speculating and turn to the moderators, devs and GMs for the official answer.

[shorty13]

honestly, i dont care if there isn't a wipe.  These events won't stop me from RPing and I wouldn't mind keeping my character.  But on the otherside i wouldn't be totally disappointed if there was wipe either.  I think to those who RP verse PL, this doesn't make much difference.

[Bartholin]

I think it's about time we stop speculating and turn to the moderators, devs and GMs for the official answer.

So guys (devs/mods/GMs) ... please could one of you tell us what you are most likely to do as a result of what has happened?

lol.. you aint going to get an answer from them for SOME time.. trying to find an online gm is next to impossiable... (in game) and the mods are always "away" and the devs are "busy" i completly agree that a whipe is indeed needed.. BUT only after the bugs and problems from this release is fixed and solved.

so.. to the devs. (in a light manner not an orderly manner)
Stop adding in items/spells/quests
work on the bug fixes
Then whipe everything... (reset button rules dont it )
THEN add in the new npc the new fake sw, or that new ultra long quest that gives you 400 tria after having to spend 6k on it.

[Indygo]

Pathetic is what it is... that a couple of people could disrupt the hard work of so many.

I have been working on Indy for just under a year.  Everybit of him has been roleplayed (to the best of my ability) from learning to cast strength in the company of the consumers in the hills, working on learning my axe techniques, to the tireless quest to get my axes.  Then 'the internet tough guy' comes in and trashes it in less then a week.     And that they are flagrant about it with no punishment?

In the developers defense what was their real options, the only effective one would have been to shut the server down until the problem could be taken care of, but how long would that be?  Whatever the case it is too late for all of that and here we sit.

The minority of players that appreciate the purpose of the game are the ones that will be punished and the one causing the problem will move on it just dont seem fair to me.  I dont want to bury Indygo yet.  Though I knew there was always a wipe in the distance there has to be a way to preserve at least stats of characters and eliminating the problem.  Trust me, I have lots in my pack I dont want to lose, but to lose the identity of my character would be heart breaking.

Call me a nerd or what you will, I have a lot of time invested in the game and have a great appreciation of what the development team have given us, which is more than just a game to some which have good friendships and actively participate in the vision of what PS is supposed to be.... not a version of yahoo chat mixed with max payne .  Beta or not, what has made ps successful is the community that supports it and losing them en masse would not be good for any of us.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Laanx is not pleased.

This said, know that the issue is being addressed by the appropriate personel. Philosophizing about wipe/no wipe is needless. We do know best and will decide based on our own heightened awareness of the state of the game.

I commend those who reported the issue. I condemn those who did so and still exploited it. No player should ever believe even for a moment that they are going to "get away with" exploiting. The harm that exploiting causes is primarily felt by the players that do not use them. The devs are safe, the gms are safe, but all the honest and good spirited folks who play PS as beta testers are harmed.

I know from experience it is very natural to exploit especially when it seems "everyone is doing it" but every massive exploit is followed by extreme action to isolate the problem and correct it as well as balance out the distribution of power. Now that I understand the difficulties the devs endure to code this for you, I highly encourage you to redouble your efforts to resist this temptation and report bugs immediately. If it is a serious issue that can bring the kind of woe that this has and a gm or dev is not hearing you do not practice with the bug yourself, corner a gm or dev and display to them personally how grievous the problem is. The gms and devs do their very best to be present and attentive but players have little knowledge of how extensive our work is. I have been on almost around the clock as have several of the gms if you cannot find us in game pm here on forums or use irc. Griefing us about presence/absence accomplishes nothing and makes a difficult job harder. Be calm in the knowledge that people all over the world are working around the clock for you and smile on us. Show some appreciation, be moderate in your tone when you want something from the gms or devs. An angry gm or dev is in no way a boon to the realization of your desires IG. this is not burger king, you do not get to "have it your way." Several great ideas have been proposed by players, unfortunately these are lost in the hundreds of carelessly written or hastily concieved ones we are spammed with every day. Take care to have a full understanding before you suggest anything.

You will not get away with exploiting for long enough to make it worth doing and the consequences for the rest of the player base are tangible. All the people who earned their way up to the top are made to pay for the trouble caused by the flagrant cheaters.

What fun can you have being a god-like cheater, especially when everyone around you is also? Having peeked at your inventories I am saddened at some of you personally, and while this is true, some of you have surprised me by not engaging in this behavoir.  Please everyone remember you are beta testers and while you are here to have fun, you are primarily here to help us make this world livable realistic and fantastic. I love this game I love the player base and I love the work I do here. In the immortal hand gestures of the Caesars

"  "

[Garile]

I don't believe anyone is blaming the devs for the fact that bugs occur and don't blame the devs for those that misuse a bug like some have done now. Obviously though it leaves quite a sour taste that the ones who seem to be punished are the ones that stay on the side of good so to say. It almost makes one even hesitant to report such a bug and rather try to cover it up in the hopes it wont be noticed for another update.

I hope however that people found using this bug will be punished with more then the wipe. Enjoying the game together is I think the goal and as such the highest crime in my eyes is to deliberately ruin the fun of others.

Anyone found using a bug to the extent of covering a map full of silverweaves and tria should in my eyes get banned. There is no way they can say they didn't know what they did was wrong and personally doubt that someone who does that takes PS serious enough for it to be even be an equal punishment to what they may have caused other in annoyances. Specially if this will require partial or full wipes to restore.