All hail the collapse of the economy!

[bilbous]

D'uh OH! goes to show search does not always help. I do find it curious though that there are five comments on the "clone" bug but only one vote. Oddly enough that bug is still not marked as assigned or any resolution indicated.  Well it looks like I was talking through my hat again.

Perhaps there should be someone responsible solely for tracking the bug tracker and prioritizing bug reports, or possibly have another column on the main page for highest priority bugs, "most recent bugs" can cycle pretty quickly at times. For the most part the players will not know how to properly report bugs or follow up.

[Garon]

Eh, if you intend to get your character to the point where he or she can kill almost anything, 150,000 goes pretty fast.

PLer! 

Farmers are supposed to make 200 trias a year.  So 150,000 trias represents a farmer's wages for 750 years.  You're right though, 150,000 can go by pretty fast.  But it's still a big amount of coin!  And if you have it saved up, then it means you don't have any intention of spending it in the very near future.

PLer is a subjective term, and only making a point, not describing myself.

I was under the impression that farmers made 250 trias a month, as it says in the player's guide

From:  http://www.planeshift.it/guide/en/setting-economy.html  (near the bottom, the Sample prices table)

"A good steel sword              350 Tria      35 Hexas        7 Octas         1 Circle, 2 Octas
Farmer's one month salary    250 Tria    25 Hexas      5 Octas       1 Circle
Healthy, trained Pterosaur     45,000 Tria    4,500 Hexas    900 Octas    180 Circles"

Therefore, as Yalikum has (iirc) a 10 month year, farmers make 2,500 a year; meaning that 150,000 is about 60 years worth of a farmer's wages.  While that's still a long time, it's certainly less then the 750 years   Oh, and if a freelance miner can make 5,000 trias on a single load of ore, something is imbalanced   Why do people still grow food, instead of switching to a pickaxe?  After all, twice the monthly wage in an hour would make learning mining worthwhile....  But there would be a huge food shortage.

--

And perhaps one was saving it up to spend it in the very near future.

[eldoth_terevan]

Quote from emeraldfool:
Wouldn't really hurt anyone!? What about all the lost time? All the frustration? All the people who have quit over this? All the commotion that Kay and the other mods have had to put up with? This isn't 'personal sacrifice', this is someone who got bored and decided to stroke his ego by becoming the next Planeshift Jesus. Why else would he be back here?

I have known Eid for as long as I have played. He is a superior player. If he says that he did this to save the game, then I believe him. He is back because he cannot stay away and he loves it. He has put a lot more time into the game than you have. I have spent hours and days and weeks of my life playing this game, I felt worse about the way the situation was than I do about lost time. Happier now.

Quote from Karyuu:
Now, we can't all keep track of every reported problem, even if the severity of some is really high. Real life interferes with issues that matter a hell of a lot more, computer access disappears, things come up. If you report a problem that is this serious or has a similar gloom-and-doom over it, please poke us about it more than once.

Pardon me, Karyuu, but I think that perhaps maybe you are mistaking 'devil's advocate' type of posting to engender discussion about an issue, with actual criticism of the team. I work at a software company and know how much effort has to go into a single button. You all work very hard. Rest assured at least I know this. But this particular issue made everyone very uncomfortable, a lot of what is going on in this thread is the welcomed release of stress and anxiety from many good people whom it bothered very much. And yes, I should have bugged you about this one, sorry.

Quote from Zanzibar:
If anyone quits the game because of this, good riddance! Cheesy As far as lost time goes, if you don't enjoy making money, then don't spend too much time doing it. And hey, everyone gets to keep 150,000 which is LOADS.  More than anyone would ideally ever need.

Agreed on all counts!

Quote from Bilbous:
It seems to me that the proper course of action (which doesn't seem to have been done) was to have posted a full description of the bug and the steps to produce it on the bug tracker. That is what the bug tracker is for. Searching the tracker for duplication and dupe I see one veiled reference to it in a bug  marked unconfirmed.

It was posted and removed at least once from the bugtracker in the last month.

Eh, if you intend to get your character to the point where he or she can kill almost anything, 150,000 goes pretty fast.

Better get busy then, eh?

Quote from emeraldfool:
In case you hadn't noticed - it's the forums where all the action takes place

In case you hadn't noticed, many of us were aware of this issue for a long time in game, and it just bubbled over onto the forum. Usually the forum is about self-destructive nitpicking it seems, and people ranting on from their respective ego soapboxes. Not that I am inferring anything about anyone...

[zanzibar]

Whoa, it's per month not per year?  Iiiiinteresting.

I'm glad that Eid did what he did.  If there's been a group of players exploiting this thing to gain advantage over everyone else, then screw them!  They're jerks! :-D

And yes, there have been people who have stored up millions of trias honestly  , but if they're just storing it, then they couldn't have needed it that badly.

[Lanarel]

D'uh OH! goes to show search does not always help. I do find it curious though that there are five comments on the "clone" bug but only one vote. Oddly enough that bug is still not marked as assigned or any resolution indicated.  Well it looks like I was talking through my hat again.

Perhaps there should be someone responsible solely for tracking the bug tracker and prioritizing bug reports, or possibly have another column on the main page for highest priority bugs, "most recent bugs" can cycle pretty quickly at times. For the most part the players will not know how to properly report bugs or follow up.

Searching works if you know what to look for (i.e., you already know the bug ). The first three comments are from the same day, the last two from silverweave day. Voting is not used (people would vote for a bug that can not be fixed and get annoyed). Assigning bugs is a problem, because most people adding bugs do not know who to assign them to.
Those things aside, if you look at bugtracking activity in the last week (click on the 2000+ client bug number on the right, sort the bugs by modification date decreasing), you will see that there is something happening. Mainly it is Caarrie going through bugs, testing them (yes, players are not always needed to test bugs, GMs can too ), marking the ones that are still occurring, closing many others. But others are actively going through them as well. Also, Vengeance started a thread asking for what bugs to have coding prospects fix.

I think the bugtracker works, but sometimes bugs get burried. Pity that one of them caused so much fuzz.

[Garon]

And yes, there have been people who have stored up millions of trias honestly  , but if they're just storing it, then they couldn't have needed it that badly.

My thoughts are the same:  why do you have that kind of money if you aren't going to use it, and if you are going to use it, why do you have that kind of money?  Especially as far as guilds and the exceptionally rich go.  Guilds, if they're storing millions of trias, should be spending it on their members, not stockpiling it for a possible later.  Individuals, if they have millions of liquid funds, are either good at buying and selling en masse:  something that I doubt the current economy is really ready for in terms of total level, if you ask me, or spend too much time making money and not enough rping and the enjoying their money making.

On the economy not being ready:  At the current stage the economy is in as far as number of items, trias, and people, someone with a few weeks of work's wages (I'd say about 10-15m if they're smart with their spending) could easily control the entire economy of high level weapons (silverweave, iron, and the like) with a few others.  The ability to prevent guilds they dislike from obtaining high quality weapons in any sort of large scale, while arming only those they like or approve of with these weapons, would make them incredibly powerful as far as influence goes.

(I'll admit, I might seem like a bit of a hypocrite with this mind, since I did lose about 825k trias total through this--but I was using it, just slowly and surely on various different things)

[bilbous]

@Lanarel  {still talking through my hat} I have to admit I have submitted a few bugs, but otherwise not made much use of the bug tracker myself and am now just throwing out ideas as they come to me without a lot of reflection. I am not casting blame at anyone, just looking forward. Perhaps the voting could be used to encourage classification  but otherwise ignored. A lot of bugs seem to languish in an unconfirmed state or even completely unclassified.

Hmm this Bowler smells good *munch munch*

[zhai]

(...) Upon some checking, this is a bug that was reported to me personally around the beginning of December. After testing it out, I passed it on to people who are not on the art team It seemed like it was being looked into, so after a while I thought no more of it and it started to gather dust in the corners of my mind. Now, we can't all keep track of every reported problem, even if the severity of some is really high. Real life interferes with issues that matter a hell of a lot more, computer access disappears, things come up. If you report a problem that is this serious or has a similar gloom-and-doom over it, please poke us about it more than once. This does not mean poking us every day, but if its serious then make a weekly effort to check on its status. Had I been reminded of this issue some time later, I would've gone "Holy crap, I wonder what happened to that bug?" and done a further check on the fix. I know that bugs and fixes are our responsibility, and there's a very delicate balance between reminding devs about what needs to be done and badgering them. However sometimes you really need to extend serious effort to make sure these things don't get forgotten, like they seem to have been in this episode. (...)

It's hard to tell when the dev team will consider a bug more important than what they already have on their plate, especially if you have learned through trial that your priorities as a player are not always in tune with that of the devs. Maybe a solution could be that when a bug is reported, the dev. who checks all the new reports can assign a priority code or something so that the person who is going to deal with it gets poked by the urgent message and it's not forgotten. If there already is such a system it would need to be revised, in my opinion.

And Eid, I've always enjoyed RPing with you and you will be greatly missed (if I manage to come back to the game before you do, that is ). I agree with Zanzibar that you've shown integrity and bravery by taking action and facing the consequences of your protest. And just like any shockingly bold message, it will be misunderstood and criticized by some, but that makes it no less effective in delivering its message. Thank you.

Now, let us all learn from this experience and try to implement a way to communicate better so that no such protests are ever needed again. If we know that a bug is being ignored despite its destructive potential, insist (fix the mac problem please!!! ). And if a bug report is submitted concerning a severe bug, let the community know exactly how it is being dealt with, from updating the corresponding threads, stickies or bug tracker page to using PMs to keep testers who can generate buzz well informed. I don't think it is enough to just refresh the technical data in the bug tracker because not everyone can understand what they are talking about. A translation to "non-programmerish" would be appreciated.

And yes, I understand this would imply yet another chore for the dev. team. But given our alpha state, shouldn't all resources available be directed to fixing stuff? And fluid communication between the community and the team is essential because we are both working on this. That's what testers are needed for after all.

[neko kyouran]

Hmm, /me makes notice to never go to sleep.  Else, he has hours of reading to do upon waking up.  Not that this is always a bad thing though.  Anyways, I'll get right into it.

I think the bugtracker works, but sometimes bugs get burried. Pity that one of them caused so much fuzz.

It does work.  It works quite well.  BUT, as someone recently said, high important bugs, such as this one, can get burried.  This is all due to the simple problem of the amount of bug being reported, due to the nature of the current developement stage of the game.

So, what can we do about this?

Poke someone!  Poke me! Poke kary! Ask for updates on how the bug is being fixing every week or so!  This is, if you aren't able to work code and submit a fix for it youself.  Poking us, we would have looked into it and made sure it was being worked on.

Here's another idea that soeon mentioned, but without anyone ever asking for an official stance on it, they immediately thought it'd be shot down:

Post a thread here, on this forum, detailing the bug, and giving link to the tracker report. 

You know what I would have done if someone had done this?  Made it a freaking Sticky until it was fixed! 

Why? Becuase bugs like this oneneed to be fixed right away dangit. 

For anyone that thinks this bug was widely known, I say to you, it wasn't.  The first I hear of it, I'm waking up to a, then anyways,  6 page thread about people complaining of what just happened in game, and I'm forced to start asking poeple what the heck just went down, and try to piece together the events myself, and what all caused this, all the while trying to damage control.

What Eid is claiming to have done, although what they thought was in the best mindset for the game as a whole, has done nothing but add countless hours of extra work by everyone, trying to pick up the peices here after the events unfolded. 

I don't like playing what if games, but if someone, anyone, had simply made a post here, on these forums, the offical forums that the PS game uses to communicate and discuss bugs and other game related topics, then it would have had the same effect.

There was no need to spam the game. 

There was no need to take things into your own hands.  Again, I do see the reasoning why it was done, but there were other options.

But that is all in the past now.  What was done was done.  Time to start moving forward.

So I'd like to ask everyone to start to move on, and consider this a learning tool for future events.  Bugs happen.  That is simply the nature of this game as its so early in developement.  You see a potential problem that could cuase a massive widescale issue later on?  Report it to bug tracker, make a post about it here so people know about it, and continue to poke us about it asking for updates until it is fixed.

There is no need to go in game and take things into your own hands.  Again, although it does get action taken, the problems from these actions that arrise, greatly outweigh the bennifits, especially when there are other avenues that can be taken, and the same results are achieved, that being, the bug is fixed.

Now, with that said, and in continuation of this thinking of moving on, I'm going to lock this thread.  If you truely feel you have aything else to add, then PM a forum mod, and if we deem it to be suitable, we'll unlock the thread so you can post it.  That has how it has always been around here.