Author Topic: Trias and Weapons gone...  (Read 2592 times)

Coneitic

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Trias and Weapons gone...
« on: February 03, 2007, 05:43:26 pm »
[i was at work today and thought this wipe, tho may fix game playing problems, puts rp players on the fringe. i dont think the devs thought about the rp part so this is my attempt to maybe help out]



Morning breaks in Yliakum, the great crystal starting to illuminate slowly. The citizens wake up from a slumber, some feelign refreshed, some feeling the effects of to much ale the night before. As the residents get up and reach for their equipment, ready to start the day, something's not right.
They reach for thier weapons but cannot find them. Nothing left but a pile of dust. Baffled, the next step seeing their weapons, not all but most, destroyed. They check their Tria sack. Looking inside shows a great pile of dust mixed with a few circles and other shapes.

An alchemist finding the same puzzling incident when she awakes starts to examine the dust....
She finds its nothing more than sand piles of rust......Rust? arent circles designed to be protected against this? and how could in one night great silverweaves, trias, armor, all be reduced to pure rusted dust?

Her years of expierience in alchemy leads her to only one conclusion... another alchemist, one with far more power than her must have dones....

someone with more power, and more evil it seems......
There is no right or wrong.... only Trias.

~Conietic

LARAGORN

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2007, 05:53:12 pm »
Interesting....
It has been a while since Laanx tormented us :p 

I always knew she was evil...

All great truthes begin as blasphemies- SHAW
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lordraleigh

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2007, 05:12:11 am »
My opinion: Trying to give an IC reason for a wipe is like trying to explain on Roleplay how your character died from "falling from the world" after the infamous bug, why there is a blackness(texture bug) in the end of the road to the Bronze Doors or how the infamous amount of trias and silverweaves suddenly were duplicated from nothing. The wipe is a consequence of the fact Planeshift is not completed and neither reached Beta yet on development, and would never happen once this game reaches "full" version and goes beyond Alpha, Beta and "Release Candidate" stages. I'm not sure on the official position of dev team about that, but I think we should roleplay it like if it was finished already, and dismiss bugs and wipes as fully OOC, no matter how hard it may seem to be doing it.

Siteri Kidachi

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2007, 08:11:25 pm »
I've currently arrived at the opinion that the best way to do this is to RP that you still have all your trias etc. (except of course for those you illegally gained in the first place) while you work your way back to your previous level.

Seytra

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2007, 09:05:21 pm »
Indeed it is, and always has been, my opinion that the only logical way to go about things like bugs, wipes, lack of implementation, etc. is to acknowledge and work around them OOC, and ignore them IC, regardless of what state the game is in.
If the wipe were posted in the ingame RP events section by an official staff member, then it would be IC (leaving aside that this idea would be rather poor). There is no conceptual difference between RPing that your dagger is covered in blood (even though the model is the usual, perfectly clean blackish dagger), or that you still have your dagger (if you legally gained it beforehand), even though there is no (or just a common) item in your inventory.

We RP that we sit, sleep, or breathe (if applicable), even though none of that is (universally) implemented. We RP not only the proper models for the races / genders, but even lots and lots of customisation, so detailed that it won't ever be fully implemented. A wipe is the same thing, just on a larger scale.

Coneitic

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2007, 11:24:17 pm »
just a reason.. no puzzle no quest. simply an action that happened. seems easier to rp something happened then ignore it...
There is no right or wrong.... only Trias.

~Conietic

Rayken

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2007, 11:48:19 pm »
Coneitic, while your heart is in the right place, I must agree with the dissenters.  IMHO, it is always a mistake try and make an OOC occurence have an RP explanation.  The world of Yliakum should be unaffected by the real world, otherwise things just get messy fast.  By messy, I suppose I mean unrealistic and/or far fetched.  You may, of course, RP the situation as you wish, but don't be surprised when people don't like the idea and refuse to RP with you because of it.
"Here's to lowering caskets of old friends choice and consequence we'll birth a new day with the death of an old and start over, start over.  Here's to burying hatchets in those who you'd never call your friend...we'll birth a new day with the death of an old day and start over, start over!"

emeraldfool

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2007, 07:00:31 pm »
It seems to me if RPing skills that you don't have is godmodding, then RPing money that you don't have is also godmodding.

Besides, I think it'd be fun, just this once, if a GM or someone took up the challenge of making this into a massive GM event... Turning an OOC disaster into an interesting Roleplay...

Siteri Kidachi

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2007, 08:12:32 pm »
It's not godmodding if you worked for those skills and money and then lost them due to an OOC occurrence.

Krann Omins

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2007, 09:49:37 pm »
I think there are simple connections being overlooked, just mix & match; godmodding +/-/* rp justification for wipe = People found a dark [edit: an evil] magic that duplicated things. It was overlooked until it boiled over, at which point the great & mighty god talad [in a flood style wipe] intervened & reduced to ash, the excess. [no more or less merciful than our theology sparing 2 of each animal--even tho the rest of the animals weren't the sinners that mattered... and sparing noah's family as if they were the only non sinners made no sense, especially seeing as how afterwards to repopulate, they would have to resort to incest & if that isn't a sin it should be... actually i guess the animals would have had to too huh?--ook maybe the noah's ark angle was a stupid attempt at a parallell... (mmmm geometric words).]

 But you get the idea: Godly wrath.  Don't like that?-- Governmental taxes & restrictions & limitations.. In any event there will always be those who play it as something else--(like new players "i was just born" (happens more often than some seem to think) "i have amnesia" "i am the greatest & have lived here in Hydlaa my whole life, how have you not heard of the dragons i've slayed? [oh, no dragons huh?] the vampires i've slayed [no? those either?--well what can i kill?] the um rats.. i'm about to slay.. even tho i'm famous & the greatest & have been here all my life..." etc)

the whole concept of rping anything technical or active strikes me as silly... rp that you  have the trias: brilliant, i'll just rp that i spent them on training, then i can rp that my skills are best & really should only have to roll anything higher than a one, using a ninety-nine sided dice to land a killing blow. RPing having money is especially great when someone wants to sell you something " / me gives 1000000 trias" there you go, of course they could retort "/ me gives [the wisenheimer] item purchased", but that really lames it up... if you ask me anyway... not that anyone did.... 

But on an unrelated note [not that any part of this post is related... except maybe Noah's grandkids' parents]
just that whe whole topic of godmodding gets my attention, cause i know a certain player who generally doesn't have much rp experience, was accused of it when a group of people decided to rp ambushing him & trying to rob him... this was while the player had been using stat modifiers of various allowed kinds, to be what most would evaluate as "may be impossible to defeat"... The people pulled /me slashes & /me stabs (without any dice or preamble). He tried to respond as if he were barely noticing their attack, expecting that they had evaluated him & wanted to try a team effort of dueling him & had cobbled together this rp excuse as sort of roleplay foreplay... So long story not as long as it could be but still longer than it should be--they accused him of godmodding & told him he should learn how to use dice... --I totally understand using dice. When your rpg is on a table, using paper, pencil & not much else... When fighting is a part of the game built in with stats skillls checks balances & math? sure, it makes sense that sometimes to make things more interesting you still may want to narrate/rp your fight, and to make that fair dice make some sense... of course that would need a lot of ooc discussion of respective stats & skills & related dice values etc... I could be wrong, I have the least rp experience of anyone i know, but it seems to me that to use dice you would have to discuss how you plan to use em first...

Which brings me back to rping having money & items: looting is based on math --if you haven't looted a silverweave yet you don't get to rp that you looted one yet, unless you are ignoring probability & the general principle for which dice (far as i know) are used... Similarly with the trias: if  a person rps having money without spending the time getting it they can do the same for training... Sure, those examples are more about new characters, but if people affected by the wipe are allowed, why not a new character? or someone who was around before the wipe but was still poor or had no silverweaves?--the same logic applies: it's just pretending that things that are implemented, functional and quantified are wrong.- complicating matters more than they need to be.. So if you are choosing to rp that you still have silverweaves & trias that you don't have you may as well also rp that your character is the only one who has an adimantiumweave sword made from the material extracted from a silver surfboard bombarded with cosmic radiation from crashing into a rocket containing the last orphan of a dying planet, and forged using the heat of a green lantern, then anointed with the blood of a gamma irradiated blind lawyer virgin bitten by a radioactive spider, whose parents were killed in front of him on their way home from the theatre ---that, and you ride the medieval equivalent of a motorcycle with flaming wheels.

wow, even i'm impressed with that one *pats self on back*
« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 07:18:03 am by Krann Omins »


Seytra

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2007, 02:13:49 am »
The difference is this:
You say that "people found a dark magic that duplicated things".
Later you say that "pretending to still have things that were wiped is "declaring that things that are implemented, functional and quantified are wrong"".
However, bugs, lack of implementation and cheats / exploits are not "implemented, functional and quantified", as obviously they are not intended to exist, and therefore even if the entire game mechanics, as designed, were to be considered "the setting", they would not be part of it.
Thus, RPing cheating / exploits as dark magic, even if only referring to it without having done it yourself, is declaring that things that are "implemented, functional and quantified are wrong" (because you would make the exploit a part of the world, which it clearly isn't, thereby unilaterally offsetting the balance of what actually is meant to exist).

Edit:
I even go as far as to assert that explaining a wipe IC-ly is godmoding, because you claim for yourself the right to make a change to each and every character in the world (Because you decide what they have to RP (in this case that a god punished them, or that some godlike alchemist did something to them)).
/Edit

Therefore, there is a huge difference between RPing something that you don't have anymore due to an OOC action like a wipe, and RPing something that you did never have, nor can realistically be assumed to have.

Regarding the issue of RPing fights and RPing paying nonexistant money: this clearly is a problematic thing, and it requires good RPers on both sides to work. It by far is not for everyone. It also means that you have to know, and trust, the other RPer to be a good RPer in the first place, not a godmoder. Therefore, I exercise extreme caution when engaging in any RP, especially if there is bound to be a confrontation of any sort, with an unknown player, until I know what that player's limits are (naturally, I must constantly reevaluate mine).

But the very same thing can happen to you with the combat system: what if you believe that running around, timing weapons and casting magic through houses is how it's supposed to be, but the other thinks that the fighting system automates the entire process so you are not to mess with it? Clearly, the same problems will arise, only that "godmoding" is replaced by "cheating / exploiting". This is especially problematic with magic vs. weapon-based fighters.

Therefore:
If you know the other player is a good RPer, and you have reason to assume that you are one, too: RP fights, for it is more entertaining if it works.
If you are unsure about your or the other player's RP abilities, but know that your and their binary representations are what you both consider reasonable, and also know that your ideas on how to use the combat system are the same, then use the combat system: it will work and have a clear, undisputable result.
IF, however, you cannot guarantee for either, the only option is to refrain from the fight.

Also, as you have observed, discussing and clearing up the situation beforehand (like if dice are to be used, and if yes, how) saves all sides a lot of problems and grief.


BTW, "godmoding" does happily work both ways: you can RP something you have not, which can be godmoding if done wrongly (i.e., you need to have consistently RP'd getting there as well, or at least believably RP'd all aspects of your above average skills, along with resulting weaknesses, for quite a while before actually using them).

But you can also just as easily level up to a completely ridiculous level that is totally inappropriate for all but very few select characters. Even if going by the ingame clock (which runs way too fast to actually use), you can become a master swordsman, second to none, within a few months (ingame time).

Thus, even if you have the skills and stats and money and items, you cannot always RP to have them, and you can still be a godmoder if you do.

I think that both ways, free-form RP on one side, and mechanics-based RP on the other side, have an equally low turnout of good RP. Both can work flawlessly only if the players are good RPers. If the players are not good RPers, then no system I have seen yet can facilitate an enjoyable encounter RPer vs. not so good RPer.

It's merely that free-form RP cannot ever work for not good RPers, while mechanics-based RP can work for non-RP (by shifting the emphasis away from the actual stats and towards who is higher faster, thereby comparing players, not characters).

All in all I think there should, in general, be much less emphasis and willingness to engage in any form of combat, even without dragging in realism.

Edit 2: clarifications

Edit 3: I find it interesting that you mention newbies RPing to have just been born: This isn't even in the settings (if everyone would be born as adult, that would clearly deserve being mentioned). Thus, one must assume that one either just arrived or lived there for a while. Clearly, one needs to glos over tha fact that one doesn't necessarily start with the proper items or status for that. So even here one can'd blindly base everything on the game mechanics, which are, deep down, merely there for OOC reasons (to make things as "fair" as possible for as many players as possible). From a character's POV, the actual "world mechanics" are quite different, and not necessarily fair at all.

Edit 4: There is no single "right or wrong", though: sometimes it may not be feasible to RP having some item that was wiped, while in other cases it may be. Likewise, in many cases it is better to RP a skill you don't have, but by far not in all cases. Common sense, and the feeling of appropriateness, possibly coupled with the feedback of other RPers you interact with, can usually provide the best guidance on a case-by case basis. The maxime of "if in doubt - don't" works even here. I think that most of the time you can ignore the wipe, but in other cases you must find an explanation for it, or just silently cease using something untill you get it back. However, such an explanation is much better something individual, like you losing the item in a betting game (if your character does that), than a "the gods have punished us (even though you might have been the most faithful and perfect disciple of all times)". At the very least, it's not forcing others to follow your explanation for their characters.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 02:38:56 am by Seytra »

Coneitic

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2007, 03:42:33 am »
Coneitic, while your heart is in the right place, I must agree with the dissenters.  IMHO, it is always a mistake try and make an OOC occurence have an RP explanation.  The world of Yliakum should be unaffected by the real world, otherwise things just get messy fast.  By messy, I suppose I mean unrealistic and/or far fetched.  You may, of course, RP the situation as you wish, but don't be surprised when people don't like the idea and refuse to RP with you because of it.

lol rp w ith me? i was banned, this wasnt an attempt to get my rp going, or have people rp with me, it was something that easily explained what happened, because if this happened cuz of an ooc event. u just ignore htat one day u were a millionare, the next ur just as poor as the next kid? its impossible to rp that. whoever rps, and strives to be good at it knows that, ignoring something that effects ur charactor both IC and OOC is far more difficult, as well as sensless.

would it really effect people so much to say something happend leaving the result less money and weapons, as much as people just all of a sudden back to a low amount of money and less weapons and playign it off like nothing happened? it makes no sense, and makes bad rp. but once again i'll state that this game is turning into a leveling game, such as silkroad, and drifting farther and farther away from rp simply because u gms and devs are so much worried about what effects a leveler more than an rper.
There is no right or wrong.... only Trias.

~Conietic

Cha0s

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2007, 11:34:59 pm »
I know I probably sound like a broken record, but this is an ALPHA game: incomplete, not done. While its end goal is to be dedicated to roleplayers, at the moment, some things that are detrimental to roleplay (such as wipes) need to happen to make really good roleplay possible in the future. The economy is part of roleplay, and without a balanced economy, roleplay will be hurt. Yes, it's hard to deal with a wipe, because there is no really good way to go about it in-character, but it has to be done for the longterm.

Now, regarding the roleplaying of a wipe. Seytra has pretty much hit the nail on the head. Players, while they can make their own events on a smaller scale, can not dictate to everyone else in the Planeshift world what a wipe means. If we GMs or the devs come up with something for you guys to roleplay, then you can roleplay it. Otherwise, you have to ignore. It's not fair to the other players for you to be the one to choose what happens. No player has that right. Not even the entire forum community has that right, as there are many players that don't frequent the forums. If there's going to be any "official" roleplay of a wipe, it will have to come from GMs and devs.
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lordraleigh

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Re: Trias and Weapons gone...
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2007, 12:04:52 am »
If there's going to be any "official" roleplay of a wipe, it will have to come from GMs and devs.

Something I hope that will never happen. I don't see a point into roleplaying things based on bugs or on the wipes that became necessary because of such bugs. Anyway it would get cheesy and inconsistent quickly by doing the "Laanx fury", etc kind of roleplay to justify such thing In-character.