Author Topic: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players  (Read 10200 times)

Esserfin

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Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« on: February 03, 2007, 09:17:14 pm »
To all the people who is part of this project:

last events pushed me to write this letter because it's time for my worlds to be said.
I've played this game for a good amount of time now and i've seen a lot of things i like but also
some of them i dislike.
The general method to consider all the players as a single unit it's basically really wrong. let me
explain: i've made friends in my time in the game and some of them moved to GM and Dev condition in
the meanwhile so could happen that i get a tell by one of them asking about situation of the game
and of new bugs i've found around. I know i can trust them and, more important, they know they can
trust me. And i'm *also* well trained, i've solved all the quests around and i've learned how to RP in a
good way in this years honestly. But i'm still considered an untrusted player..and is how i feel.
We all know also that we need people who RP, people who solve quests and people who level up to find
all the bugs that could be present.
We need all of them..that must be clear.
The excuse that usually the team uses when something wrong happens is the old 'it's an alpha
release' one. That's right but... are human relationships between us always in an alpha release too?
The structure Devs - GMs - Players showed its weakness so many times that i can't understand why no
one have seen it.
All the times that a wipe happens we *all* move back to the stoneage. we had only one exception
moving from MB to CB when something has been moved in the new era as a reward for effords we put in
this project as players. A great idea...used only one time.
Maybe it's time to use it more often?
I'm not speaking of the greed to have al my stuff preserved for my own purpose, i'm speaking of the
need to have well skilled players around to test the game *always* not only after months of
basically stupid training because of a wipe.
So the basic question is....do you (Planeshift Team) trust someone around that is not a Dev or a GM
enough to give him/her back the stat and skill levels after that? Or to listen them seriously?
Do people like me have the possibility to be heard when starts to complain about the loss of his
'properties' done because 'someone cheated ...and you could be one of them'?
The consequence of this kind of acts is the periodic loss of Oldbies around...and we need to
discover the wheel again and again. If no one listen 'old' people around we only obtain that we
don't need new problems because we can recycle the old ones for ages.
Give credit and confidence to the people who is here to try to help. Please.
In another thread i've been warned by Neko because i was complaining too much...but i've seen no
reply by him to Siteri (nothing personal) when i've got the advice 'Create more accounts so you can
keep things more safe'. You have responsabilities here...you can't consider a trick something you
could let live with no words. Or another post where someone said 'throw a stone if you have no
spots'admitting that he abuse bugs with no consequences at all. There're honest people around you
know? And that kind of people is *offended* by things like that.
Give to experience and honesty the respect they deserve.
Time for Vigesimi to be an active part of all this. If we all want to move forward.

Please don't take this post as an attack to Planeshift, it's only a love gesture.
And if no one will listen this words...well...i've only wasted another part of my free time.

With Love.



Esserfin Sussert
The Dragon Council

Nurahk

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2007, 09:22:27 pm »
To all the people who are complaining, giving suggestion and commenting on the Wipe:

Get used to it.

Love you all, but I rather see the game move forward in development than keep my hands on a few (easily replaced) tria.

emeraldfool

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2007, 09:28:13 pm »
I want to agree with you, but I'm finding it very difficult to figure out what you're talking about...

Karyuu

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2007, 09:33:10 pm »
Quote
So the basic question is....do you (Planeshift Team) trust someone around that is not a Dev or a GM enough to give him/her back the stat and skill levels after that? Or to listen them seriously?

Do you understand the level of favoritism this will show? If we hand-pick the people who get to keep their stats or items, can you even comprehend the amount of crying, hating, and complaining we will have to deal with? Do you think that older players won't occasionally cash in on a bug or exploit? Because I can assure you, "seniority" in the game has a lot less to do with this than you may think. Yes, there are players I can place my full trust in. But that's because I know them personally and consider them my friends. Would I give them their stuff back just because of that? Absolutely not.

Quote
Do people like me have the possibility to be heard when starts to complain about the loss of his 'properties' done because 'someone cheated ...and you could be one of them'?

I hear you, but I cannot make exceptions. For every player that I know, there can be dozens I'm not familiar with that can make your same claim - and what do I say to them? "I'm sorry but I don't know who the hell you are so bugger off"?
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Esserfin

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2007, 09:35:35 pm »
I want to agree with you, but I'm finding it very difficult to figure out what you're talking about...

If it's because of my english i can't do nothing better (it's not my natural language). If it's because of arguments i can't do nothing ...maybe it's not addressed to you.

@Karyuu I can understand what you're saying but...i'd like to step forward from the 'i have more items/skills than you' people showing off around. There are players who don't mind/want to do it. People who could need stats/skills back to have the possibility to check new things without the need of re-train all again for months before gaining back the requirements to do that.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 09:44:00 pm by Esserfin »
Esserfin Sussert
The Dragon Council

Zan

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2007, 09:42:45 pm »
Wipes have happened, wipes will happen again .. there are plenty of warnings about this. If you can't cope with that, sorry to say it, but that's entirely your problem. The devs and GMs will never claim that you won't be wiped anymore so you are playing this game fully aware of that possibility. They can't give anyone special treatment either .. it's not always possible to track down every offender so everyone suffers the consequences of their actions. If you're going to be disappointed in anyone or mad at anyone .. take it out on the people who abuse bugs instead of reporting them, I'd say.
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Karyuu

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2007, 09:46:53 pm »
Esserfin, favoritism and special treatment is a bucket no one on the development team wants to step into. It's not going to happen - and I am surprised that you do not see the inherent problems with your suggestion. How can you not understand that we can't pick and choose which players gets to keep what in a wipe?

Besides, were not skills left alone in this wipe?
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Esserfin

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2007, 09:55:17 pm »
Esserfin, favoritism and special treatment is a bucket no one on the development team wants to step into. It's not going to happen - and I am surprised that you do not see the inherent problems with your suggestion. How can you not understand that we can't pick and choose which players gets to keep what in a wipe?

I'm not saying that this will be an easy thing to do...and i'm not claiming it for me. I just wanted to know if it was possible to build a reputation acting honestly in game for years. And this seems impossible. That's a real pity because there are good and honest players around. that could be used better.

Besides, were not skills left alone in this wipe?

Yeah ...i was not complaining about it (this time). :)
Esserfin Sussert
The Dragon Council

Karyuu

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2007, 10:00:37 pm »
Being around for a long time, you must know how I feel about "General Complaints About A Wipe" threads... ;) You're not saying anything that people haven't already said in dozens of threads on this subject.

No special treatments during wipes, at all.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Coneitic

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2007, 10:02:55 pm »
this whole thing went from an act of terrorism to get a bug fix to everyone freaking about a wipe. to be honest i can only remember one person complaing about not having their trias anymore...
There is no right or wrong.... only Trias.

~Conietic

emeraldfool

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2007, 10:06:23 pm »
You can't trust the public. Ever. Individuals have the potential to be good, but the public as a whole are evil, selfish, greedy and stupid- which is something you can count on.


And even if people did want their skills back just for testing's sake, there's other people who consider this a game - maybe not a finished game, but a game nonetheless - and they want things fair. They don't want 'testers' going around who have super buffed-up stats for the off-chance that something might require super buffed-up stats...



Edit: Coneitic, no offense at all, but why are you still here? :P Just out of interest...

Esserfin

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2007, 10:14:20 pm »
And even if people did want their skills back just for testing's sake, there's other people who consider this a game - maybe not a finished game, but a game nonetheless - and they want things fair. They don't want 'testers' going around who have super buffed-up stats for the off-chance that something might require super buffed-up stats...

To become a Gm you need to be a player first...and Gms are players. Did you find it unfair?

 
Esserfin Sussert
The Dragon Council

Garon

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2007, 10:18:44 pm »
Favoritism causes more problems then it creates.  I cannot claim friends with GMs, Devs, or others in charge, and what I lost was a gift from a friend of mine who, to the best of my knowledge, earned the money completely legally.  I'm not bothered by this; However, if someone could keep legally obtained funds just because they are friends with the people up top would bother me to no end:  Just because I haven't made the right friends, they were spared from something that effected me.  I would think "What unfair favoritism!", and probably be writing the exact opposite of the post you just made, complaining that if I got wiped after someone else abused something, so should everyone else.

I wasn't even online when one person abused the bug and ruined it for all the honest players.  However, I'm fine with losing the money--I'm not completely broke, and still have some money, and it's a recoverable loss.  Certainly an easier thing to recover from then the huge inflation that would inevitably happen after that many trias entered the economy all at once.

However, the general view that we as players are all likely to cheat at the first opportunity isn't true; unfortunately I find this is a prevailing view among those who're in charge of keeping cheaters down in mmorpgs.  I can understand the need to be suspicious due to those few who ruin it for the rest of us, but the prevailing idea that everyone can't be trusted is a bad one.  Much better to consider what is known about the player before assuming they are going to cheat, lie, and steal to get ahead in a game.  It's again a case of a few ruining it for the rest of us, but if it's just a few, then don't allow people to abuse that, but don't then act like everyone is guilty.  The few are guilty, everyone else is perfectly fine; I'm willing to sacrifice things to prevent a few from abusing them, but I'm not willing to then be lumped into the group with those few in the minds of those in charge, at least openly.  It's like if the police take you into custody because you might fit a vague description of someone who committed a crime, and you know you're innocent.  It's an inconvenience, sure, and a pretty scary experience, but you'll be out of there soon enough, and afterwards there's likely to be one less lawbreaker on the streets.  The police don't treat you like a potential criminal once you've been cleared as someone who isn't a suspect though, they apologize for the trouble they caused, and send you on your way.  It'd be nice if those running mmorpgs could do the same; apologize for the inconvenience caused by a small minority of cheaters, and have everyone move on.

Edited to add:

You can't trust the public. Ever. Individuals have the potential to be good, but the public as a whole are evil, selfish, greedy and stupid- which is something you can count on.

I actually find the public more reliable to do the right thing then individuals, when faced with the fact that what they're doing is, at it's heart, wrong.  A major incentive against committing a crime or preforming some other bad deed is social pressure--something that the public creates, which I think needs to be heavier while on the web... many think they can do whatever they want on here, because nobody will see them--this is individuals causing problems, not the public as a whole..
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 10:23:11 pm by Garon »

emeraldfool

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2007, 10:20:11 pm »
And even if people did want their skills back just for testing's sake, there's other people who consider this a game - maybe not a finished game, but a game nonetheless - and they want things fair. They don't want 'testers' going around who have super buffed-up stats for the off-chance that something might require super buffed-up stats...

To become a Gm you need to be a player first...and Gms are players. Did you find it unfair?


GMs are above the status of 'player'. They have responsibilities, duties, they've worked for their trust.

It's different from simply declaring 'I want to have superior stats because I'll use them to test stuff'.

 


Edit: When I say 'The public are selfish', I don't mean every single member of the public is selfish, I mean there's always at least one person within the public who is selfish, and so you MUST treat the entire public as selfish. That's just how it goes. It doesn't mean you should treat individual people with suspicion. You'll never meet 'the public' in your entire life, but you should still be careful of it.

Nobody's 'lumping' you in with the rest of the cheaters. It's just a precaution they have to take.

Gwinn Ravenn

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Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2007, 10:21:15 pm »
The point that seems to be missed here it NOT the loss of items or money. The common point that has been voiced is the lack of respect, common human courtesy,  to any of the testers/players. It isn't the lost of things so much as the fact that most players/testers feel their voice is not heard on any issue. If it isn't something already thought of by the Dev. team a suggestion is laughed at. If it is a bug, even a dangerous one, it is ignored or remedied in what seems to be a half hearted "fix". If a topic on the forum is unpalatable or difficult to hear it is locked down or the comments deleted. One must ask why are we even here. to take up space on the server? to use the game? virtual bodies? account number and ip addresses? That is it. If we all knew that from the beginning instead of giving us the illusion of a voice many would not be so upset. In telling us we are testers many are under this false impression that we matter. To put it simply we do not. When we comment negatively on any topic regarding how thing are run we are reminded we are testers. I have seen the comment suck it up more than once. it is unfortunate.  Truly what we understand as a tester and what this role actually means are sadly, two very different things.
Funny, when I frist started playing and heard that we where testers. I thought "wow we matter we are part of the creation of a game  how very wonderful" now, I hear the word tester and cringe. The reality is it means little and has become a bit of a thorn and a source of frustration for many. Fustrations that can not be voiced.
 We must also consider this: If an issue keeps returning, if it is still being discussed then it is not really resolved. It is important to express oneself, especially when those opinions are not popular ones. These recent issues have brought to the surface the frustrations many  have felt for some time. It is unfortunate that because those in charge are tired of hearing it that these frustrations must be pushed down again where they can fester into another desperate act like we recently experienced.
I also realize that by posting this I too risk banishment. Though I am debating whether I should continue playing the game. Now that Eid is banned I am not sure I want to play Gwinn anyway. who wants to play a depressed character. I am up in the air about that. What would reduce the frustration level for many I think is to outline EXACTLY what our role is here.  It is truly ashame. I have not found anyone in game I disliked oocly the players in PS are some of the best around and many are a joy to rp with. Well if this post gets to stay I honestly will be amazed, though I also know that if it does it will not matter. Still I have said all I have to say.
Be well all.


P.S. be well Eid you will be missed.