Author Topic: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players  (Read 10223 times)

miadon

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 934
    • View Profile
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2007, 11:12:15 pm »
can we have a wipe of wipe threads please? :P
- MiadonCam (Refresh page to see live in game Miadon Action!!)

Garon

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2007, 11:13:32 pm »
However, the general view that we as players are all likely to cheat at the first opportunity isn't true; unfortunately I find this is a prevailing view among those who're in charge of keeping cheaters down in mmorpgs.  I can understand the need to be suspicious due to those few who ruin it for the rest of us, but the prevailing idea that everyone can't be trusted is a bad one.

Whenever possible, GMs try to give players the benefit of the doubt in questionable situations. We hope players do not attempt to take advantage of this trust, and provide their full cooperation.

We want this game to be good for new players and old, RPers and gamers, so we need the economy to not have billions of circles.  Wiping is a drastic measure and we don't do it without a lot of thought, debate and discussion about the best way to undo the damage caused by our bugs (sorry!) without hurting the innocent.  We do our best to find and fix bugs we find, but this is a huge and complex game and it is very difficult to keep up with innovative players. :-)

Just the immediate quotes I could think of. It's wrong to think that all players are cheaters, and it's wrong to think that this is what the dev team thinks :) So don't.

I was merely responding to the general feeling behind the original post, with my thoughts on it--I haven't interacted with the GM and Dev teams enough to make any broad assumptions of my own about their view of players.  When I said:
However, the general view that we as players are all likely to cheat at the first opportunity isn't true; unfortunately I find this is a prevailing view among those who're in charge of keeping cheaters down in mmorpgs. 
I was not overtly pointing fingers at the Planeshift Dev. and GM team, which I have not seen in action for long enough to point fingers at in any way (good or bad), I was speaking from my experiences in other mmorpgs, and how it was a prevailing view among many that I've played that all players are bad and out to harm others as soon as someone looks the other way.


I can say that the general feeling behind the wipe seemed to be more "well, even if they didn't cheat then, they probably cheated using this method before, so cut back their money" then a "well, we screwed up, and a few bad people abused it, so we'll cut things back a bit, sorry guys" on the receiving end of the posts and decisions.  I am not a Dev or GM, so I can't write from their point of view.

As I can only speak from this point of view, and not from the others, and although it's likely that it wasn't at the level that this decision was made, the way it was delivered (Vengeance, had he written his post much more apologetically--more "So sorry, but because of a single person causing trouble, and that a small group of people have been abusing this bug for months, we've been forced to do a wipe to return stability to the economy" and less "oh, and by the way, we wiped, here's why", would have left a better impression of the Devs in general in my mind, and likely the other players minds as well--I realize it was sort of apologetic, but it could have been written much better then it was) and the point that there was not clear "other" as far as who's fault it was (at a basic level, it was the fault of the one who caused all the trouble--I mean at a more sort of "who to blame" level; Many are to blame in the end, but that they weren't pointed out by the Dev team as a sort of group means that it seems like the Dev team just assumes that players are all going to manipulate bugs)meant that the perceived "other" as far as who's fault it was becomes all those effected by the wipe, not just those who were the total cause for it--both leave a sort of bad general feeling.


Edit as to not have to write a new post, as it is just a clarification on my thoughts of the wipe as a whole:

I think that the wipe was necessary, important, and am not talking about the wipe itself--I'm fine with that.  As I would be fine with being pulled into the police station if I vaguely resembled the description of someone wanted for their having taken part in the crime:  better that I am stuck in a police station for a few hours then a criminal runs around on the loose.  Losing a small amount of money is a small inconvenience compared to the problems that massive inflation would cause.  What I'm writing about isn't disagreement with the wipe, but the way it was announced and the like.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 11:34:36 pm by Garon »

Esserfin

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2007, 11:13:41 pm »
The distance that you are creating between players and the development team is sometimes just that - your own creation.

Mine has been my first, and last, try to keep Devs and players more near. I'm sad that this has not been noticed. I'll restart to be a 'typical' player in PS....maybe.

Esserfin Sussert
The Dragon Council

Narure

  • Guest
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2007, 11:15:02 pm »
We moan about wipes, we are moaned at for moaning, we moan for being moaned at, we are moaned at for moaning again... a vicious cycle emerges, every single wipe, every single mention of a wipe, i could mention the word "wipe" in guild chat and the next day there would be an epidemic.

Nurahk

  • Guest
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2007, 11:18:23 pm »
Garon, the Devs did trust us with the bug, for quite a while.  But it's a small group of players who abused it and dropped tria everywhere.  People picked that up and so the economy was crippled.

I understand that Vengeace's post could have been written better, but I do not think it should have.  We, as a player base, are the ones that exploited the bug, why should he apologize to us, if anybody, we should be mad at those who exploited.  If anything, the Devs attempted to fix the economy and level the playing field.

Now this thread is going to start going around in cirlces, it probably already has.  There's no chance that we will reach a conclusion to this because all it is is complaining and defending.

Be grateful for what you have, and if you don't like the wipe, find bugs, report bugs and verify/edit existing bugs.

Gwinn Ravenn

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • Gwinn (ravenn) Frawd
    • View Profile
    • Sapere Magi current events web page
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2007, 11:22:41 pm »
I have not expressed anything to suggest ingratitude. what I have expressed is an observation regarding "tester" frustration the growing opinion we do not matter. expressing such things dose not suggest ingratitude it is quite the opposite. If we didn't care or where ungrateful those frustrated would leave and play something else we would not care enough to be frustrated in the first place. Many are frustrated because we see the potential of this game. It is the only one of its kind. It does create a wonderful setting for RP. Many do not want to see that destroyed. A complaint is not always sour grapes, in many cases it is an observation that something is heading in a direction that would be detrimental to the game. When we think of ourselves as testers we think we are supposed to help to point out thing we see as potential trouble spots. I will stop thinking of myself as a tester. I am merely an ip. Therefore I will no longer be frustrated nor will I feel the need to complain.

emeraldfool

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1383
  • Irish (adj.): Cynical; morally bankrupt
    • View Profile
    • My Portfolio (or at least what I've bothered to upload...)
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2007, 11:24:05 pm »
I'm more disgusted by the lack of gratitude than unsympathetic.

It's like kicking Santa in the crotch because he had to fix one of your computer and you lost your save game.

I can understand that people are annoyed by the lost items and tria, feeling that their time was wasted.  But it wasn't, if you're a half decent player than you got to develop your character and chances are something you did at sometime helped the game.  Be happy with that, and maybe the devs will do a reward for faithfulness again, but that happened after years of development.

Yeah, I know. You've said the exact same thing in the last 5 or 6 posts you've made on this subject :P

I agree - the Devs and GMs and Mods and everyone else tied in with this thing are spending almost depressing amounts of time on this game, and people are still pissing all over them over things they can't control.

Likewise, the massive amounts of time players spend playing this game is ultimately worthless, because time and time again everything will be reset, and all that progress is lost.




It's just a never-ending cycle of frustration, and one that, like Karyuu said before, we need to laugh at.
As I intend to do:



...
Ha.


Karyuu

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 9341
    • View Profile
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2007, 11:25:28 pm »
Gwinn, you haven't explained at all why you feel the way you do. Where do you feel that you do not matter?
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Esserfin

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2007, 11:26:42 pm »
Please lock this thread...that is not what i wanted to discuss here. Thanks to the people that changed a serious propositive post into a mess.

Esserfin Sussert
The Dragon Council

Nurahk

  • Guest
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2007, 11:29:05 pm »


Yeah, I know. You've said the exact same thing in the last 5 or 6 posts you've made on this subject :P


And yet, nobody has really noticed :P

Ah well, I'm leaving this thread now, enjoy feeling self righteous, people.

Eid

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2007, 11:32:42 pm »
This whole wipe thing is blown way out of propotion, when you play a game on your comp, you get halfway thru it and LOVE the game, if you have to reformat your comp due to a virus do you never play that game again? most likly you start over using your knowledge to get back to that point, you dont send out emails to teh game saying "i had to refomat fix me and send me a saved game file at this level. they would laugh at you.

So your left with the choice, let the viruse take over and keep playing the game,
Or reformat and start over
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 11:35:14 pm by Eid »

Siteri Kidachi

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 542
    • View Profile
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2007, 11:35:32 pm »
Basically, PS is like a school, and the GMs and devs are like the teachers... I'm sure you've all been in a situation where a teacher has punished an entire class for one student's misbehavior. It's the same deal here.

zhai

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 391
    • View Profile
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2007, 11:39:25 pm »
It's got more to do with frustration levels rather than the actual wipes, I think.

I've reported bugs I would consider a priority because of how they affect gameplay, but they aren't for the devs because of other more urgent problems. I can't play at the moment because of one of those bugs and all I can do is suck it up because there must be other more important or urgent things to solve now, and I understand it. That is their prerrogative and they really are doing their best. However, these things tend to add up. I think what Gwinn is pointing at is that even if the devs are doing all they can and great work at that, we can't help to feel frustrated every now and then and a way to deal with it is to just say it. It's something we can't help.

I don't expect to be missed at all nor that my priorities become those of the devs' immediately. Sometimes the best way to help is to get out of the way. Yeah, you can take some time off, complain somewhere else or find another game but nobody really wants the community to lose valuable members who have the skills to contribute in-game and out, even if every day a new player comes along and testers sorta become disposable in terms of server space. And seeing good RPers leave the game is always sad and it's even sadder if it happens because of miscommunication problems or misunderstandings becuase the community really loses then. Both devs and testers have things they can't help and have to suck up.


*edit: typo >.>
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 11:42:32 pm by zhai »
:: The Flaming Feather :: Lady of the Rangers ::

emeraldfool

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1383
  • Irish (adj.): Cynical; morally bankrupt
    • View Profile
    • My Portfolio (or at least what I've bothered to upload...)
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2007, 11:40:32 pm »
This whole wipe thing is blown way out of propotion, when you play a game on your comp, you get halfway thru it and LOVE the game, if you have to reformat your comp due to a virus do you never play that game again? most likly you start over using your knowledge to get back to that point, you dont send out emails to teh game saying "i had to refomat fix me and send me a saved game file at this level. they would laugh at you.

So your left with the choice, let the viruse take over and keep playing the game,
Or reformat and start over

Well, actually, I'd probably stop playing and pick it up like a year later when I've forgotten the story. But yeah, the sentiment's sound.

People are just frustrated. You can't blame them. If I had actually played for longer than a few weeks, I'd probably have put my fist through the screen at this news...





. I think what Gwinn is pointing at is that even if the devs are doing all they can and great work at that, we can't help to feel frustrated every now and then and a way to deal with it is to just say it. It's something we can't help.


How would you like to be the one who's whined at relentlessly by a dozen people though?

[ Edited for language. --Karyuu ]

Gwinn Ravenn

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • Gwinn (ravenn) Frawd
    • View Profile
    • Sapere Magi current events web page
Re: Open letter to Planeshift Team and to players
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2007, 11:43:50 pm »
I thought that I had.  but no matter I have moved from frustration to acceptance. So it is a mute point for me.
the frustration is less from wipes. a wipe is expected and generally accepted. I know of people who have made suggestion, real one, instead of a response of we will consider your idea or not response at all. They where laughed at. No reasonable person expects the dev to respond to every suggestion, we dont expect to be laugh at or scoffed. when the anvil thing was happening I was there. we pointed out exactly what was happening and at what point in the process the crashed was happening. It was like pulling teeth to be heard. it took us half an hour just to convince someone it was the anvil not the trade function. Thank you Venge. for hearing us. some of the devs do listen. that is my personal experience. I have heard similar from other people. to get anyone to listen to us is like pulling teeth. It is frustrating' because we care and have to fight to be heard. We know the devs are working on off hours I think it is awesome that ps exists. a testament to real RPers. We are willing to be testers, if only we where allowed to be.