Resposibility and Honesty

[Janner]

I don't agree with what he did, but it is what he thought he should do.
[Me] Finds a bug or think it is a bug, goes to IRC, "hello a Dev got a few mins please," versus replies, most not helpful, but ignore them, non of there business, Dev will say what is up. 1-1, explain, we then talk, a decision is made, some times they will log in to were I am monitor what is done or happening, instructions, a few test, and the problem is then known, dealt with there or researched then dealt with, I have done my Job as tester, Dev has or is doing there part, This is how in the main I deal with a problem. Would like to say, In all my dealings with Devs, never once had a bad word from them or found them to be any thing but helpful, or willing to help.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

We would be working if we were not responding here  . . .

Eid is no hero, what he did was lame. Any player who encounters a game breaking bug should corner a dev or gm and ask to show them exactly how grievous the problem is instead of taking the mean spirited approach of "vigilante" <--this was cowardly and not forthright in any way.

Not only did this make good players lose some of the stuff they earned fairly, but it required hours and hours so that the wipe could be handled as kindly as possible to the good players.

If you have been with PS for a long time now please stand up to this idiocy. Do not sit idly by while people you know push things to the point of requiring a wipe. Tell us immedaitely AND show us what the problem is. Display how it is done in real time with a gm or dev. Throughout the whole of this crisis I was available in irc 12-16 hours a day for someone to show me the problem.

Do not take the cowardly mean spirited whiney way.

Take the noble forthright honest way.

Calling us lazy is ignorant, and unfathomably rude.

to those players who are friends of PS:

 keep the devs off the forums by shutting down such rediculous arguments from within the player community. I am going back to work now . . .

enjoy the game.   

[bilbous]

Are we still talking about this? How has this thread not been locked yet?

[Nikodemus]

There is one thing what Suno said I think is worth commenting in positive light. The bit about bugs being fixed in one relese and broken in the same way in the next. This is worrying, but...
We can't be sure if it is really true. We may be deceived, as most of us don't know enough about programming and more important, we aren't devs and can't examine the problem personally, as good as we claim we could.
Sometimes i sit on something in blender, I stare on that 3D model and can't figure a thing what i'm going to do next to make the model be as it should. The conclussion is simple. Sometimes a problem is not as simple as it looks like from a distance.
But as i said, it is worrying that sometimes the same bugs come back, like they were the same. You could think that devs constanly erase each another job, by comminting their patches. But only devs know if it is the issue and i doubt they wouldn't try it eliminate such a problem.

As for Eid being a hero or not. For me he is just another tester, who thought what he did was needed. But there are two issues with this:
1. Everything would be fine if devs hadn't have to spent extra time on figuring what kind of wipe to do and how to do it. If not this, they would just continue fixing bugs, but with changed order.
2. We do have to punish exloiters somehow, so just for example Eid had to be puniched.

And there is the problem with the bank guy who lost money of 99% of the investors.

Are we still talking about this? How has this thread not been locked yet?

coz we like to post ;P
and it was fun to read Acraig post 

[Gwinn Ravenn]

The fellow who made the statement he wasn't Knowledgeable with computers. was saying IF HE DID have that knowledge he Would join the dev team. It wasn't that hard to understand what he was saying. His statement seemed to me, to be one of some one who simply feels their hands are tied in such things. I must say I was not surprised by how his statement was reinterpreted nor the response he got.
It is a good example of the point I was making Earlier.  I can only accept the first rule, and move on.

[zanzibar]

Eid did not do the right thing.

He did the right thing based on what he knew at the time.  I don't think he realized that there were alternatives, and I don't think he realized how much time it was going to take to clean up the mess.

Later: If a GM really called Eid "Hitler" on IRC then that is inexcusable, and it underscores the issues that the players have with the GMs in game.

The GMs are a good bunch, but I can definately believe that something like that was said on IRC.  The culture on #planeshift is despicable.  The moderation is poor, and people use it as an opportunity to say nasty things about others.  I was even banned from IRC for a good long time because I was monitoring it using a moniker people wouldn't recognize me by, and in the process I caught a staff member saying a few things to someone else that he didn't want me to hear.  So I was banned for reading something while others are allowed to make offensive comments so openly.

Ah, the wonders of the internet.

[acraig]

How else I am supposed to react to somebody that called me and our team "lazy" and have our "heads up our asses".   Fixing bugs is not as easy as fixing a tire.  There are no easy answers and often times no answers at all for a while.   If people hate the game that's fine, that does not give them the right to make outlandish claims about our work ethic or how we run our operation.   If his hands are tied he shouldn't be throwing insults.

[ThomPhoenix]

Yup, when you want things to change it's better to use constructive criticism than being offensive.
Offensiveness causes people to get angry and that won't help anything at all.

[Narure]

If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain.

- Maya Angelou

*grumbles* stupid bilbous has got that website stuck in my head now.

[Xylaal]

Well then.

Please reread my initial entry. I am of the opinion that the game is bettered when we communicate. I thought, through starting this thread and posting my feelings, that we could engage in an introspective dialog that could possibly bring out some solutions - a better way. I am disappointed. But I know how these forums go so...that's all...I'll shut up now.

[Acraig; your first post was very funny and I laughed out loud...I understand your all trying hard and meant to cast no aspersions upon the teams work ethic - just hoped for more openness about the process]     

[zanzibar]

How else I am supposed to react to somebody that called me and our team "lazy" and have our "heads up our asses".

It's possible that a little more understanding and tact could have been beneficial in this situation.  There are people who agree with what Eid did and there are people who don't see the dev team in a positive light.  Being rude to those individuals will only reinforce their impressions.

[Gwinn Ravenn]

Acreg , Please. I do understand the level of frustration you and the rest of the team face. Finding that one repeating incorrect line of code in a sea of code is not an easy thing. Fixing code that has already been written is not easy. I do not think the dev. team is lazy. There is however, reality and then there is perception. That particular type of reaction dose not help things. If there is the perception the dev. teams will laugh people off the player base will react in kind. It is understandable that the team would take offense at the implication/accusation of Lazy. But that is not what your response was directed to.
The commenter was belittled when they where expressing a desire to help even though they did not have the means. That leaves the readers of the thread with the perception that the offense was taken at the idea someone wanted to help, and not what actually offended you. Of course you would take offense at the implication of being called lazy. most of the dev team works a full day, comes home only to work X amount of hours on the game. However, in the same way the dev. team has earned the respect of many, for the many hours of work and creativity they also have lost respect due to commentary that is unbecoming to people with your caliber.

[Redic]

It is comments like these

<acraig>If you want to continue I suggest in emails or whatever channels you want, except here.
<acraig>The forums are MINE as well so I will not tolerate

<Cinerar>Caarrie, if I have an idea or something, should I say it or just shut up?
* Edichogained a little experience
<Caarrie>if it means more frequent updates dont say it that as medium.

<Vengeance>Many devs don't even come to this channel anymore because of the constant hassle of "helpful" suggestions.

That take away from the respect and loyalty to the dev team and GM's (im sorry i seem to have lost the post where Xillix compared Eid to hitler)

[Zan]

constructive people, constructive ... that means you have something to add, not just badmouthing others publically.

[acraig]

It is comments like these

<acraig>If you want to continue I suggest in emails or whatever channels you want, except here.
<acraig>The forums are MINE as well so I will not tolerate
<Cinerar>Caarrie, if I have an idea or something, should I say it or just shut up?
* Edichogained a little experience
<Caarrie>if it means more frequent updates dont say it that as medium.
<Vengeance>Many devs don't even come to this channel anymore because of the constant hassle of "helpful" suggestions.

That take away from the respect and loyalty to the dev team and GM's (im sorry i seem to have lost the post where Xillix compared Eid to hitler)

Way to take stuff out of context.  Perhaps you'd like to post the hours before hand of the tedious exchange where an IRC member had some personal vendetta he was trying to score points with, and using the IRC channel we set up to do so.  People like to assume the worst about us it seems.