new combat style

[Eila]

Fighting should be about character skill, not player skill.  That's pretty much what this combat system is trying to accomplish.

Thats incorrect and wrong, in my opinion. Combat should not be the equivalent of 2 static entities facing each other on some hex map with only character skills as the determining factor. Player skill is much more difficult to achieve than character skills. Player skill relies on talent and hard-earned experience gathered by the player. Thats why a system involving different races works.
Experience should be emphasized and encouraged, certainly not hampered, disabled or ruled-out.

Eila

[Volund]

I really think the devs dont like our type of dueling, guerilla is my way hit and run is pretty much everyones way of dueling, it really helps create a good experience

[Dales Lierin]

Regardless of "mechanics" and regardless of duelling styles.  It is a fact of combat that in a life and death combat, both parties will hit however they may.  Individuals who practice hitting only what is in front of their face will die.  All self defense teaches the person to not only be aware of their surroundings but means to defend yourself, and to counter attack regardless of the direction of the original attack.  I completely and fully disagree with the new "combat style" which is not combat but target practice.

[zhai]

I'm downloading v.18 as I type this post. I understand the new mechanics of combat and I don't think I will be dueling quite as much as I used to (if my client works at all) but then there are many things about combat that need tweaking and it's good to hear the team is taking action. Now, about that, Neko's quote caught my attention:

*** 2007-02-05 by Keith Fulton
- Made several small but important revisions to combat.
  a. Now if you go out of range, you don't lose combat mode.  This will prevent players
     from jumping in and out of range to kite npcs and duel in unfun ways(...).

Obviously, not that small but then that depends on how you see PvP and how important it is for you. Is it for PLers? for PKers? for everyone? Do people in charge of the development of PvP think changing completely how you fight is actually a "small" thing?

Last time I played (back with v.16), jumping when hitting the attack button prevented falling through the floor and getting killed by the world. That was one of many bugs we had to deal with in combat. It was kinda tricky to get a hold of but I wouldn't call it unfun. In fact, I found it quite enjoyable once I got used to it. If there was anything unfun about dueling then was actually falling through the floor or getting teleported or pushed back as you tried to move (or simply being a victim of any of the combat bugs).

But, despite the fun many may have had dueling with good old slash and dash and our interest in having it back and as bugless as possible, it seems that the devs are still trying to find a system that they find best. We have to remember that it is still work in progress and things are tried, changed and, sometimes, messed up. Part of the process is evaluation and making the the necessary changes so the final outcome is enjoyable for all.

Remember when you had to call NPCs by their name to start a conversation with them? Well, that one didn't work so smoothly but it was worth trying. I say be patient and try to post your opinions constructively. I think the devs appreciate an honest opinion but remember that we are in no position to demand anything from anyone as if we were complaining about something we bought and now wish to return.

[Roahn]

Fighting should be about character skill, not player skill.  That's pretty much what this combat system is trying to accomplish.

Nurahk, this sounds okay in theory, but currently a person moderately trained in Sword and carrying a nice weapon can kill a character maxed in everything in one hit, and it makes a duel pretty much a coin toss: The person who hits first, wins. Not fun at all.

The way dueling was prior to 3.018, some skill was involved beyond blind luck and training. Luck and training were still factors, but not the only factor.

-Roahn

[zhai]

I don't think this new system is the reason why player skill or character training has so little to do with winning a duel. It just makes it more noticeable.

Luck, skill and speed used to be somewhat balanced before weapon quality was introduced. When that happened, weapons turned from Q=10/10 to Q=50/50 and all damage output raised considerably. This made any half-trained, well-equiped char lethal. So, if your character was a skilled fighter or even a master in combat, it didn't really mean anything. So, in a duel, about a 50% chance to win depended on luck, while the other 50% depended on speed and skill (25-25, 20-30, or something like that). But at least with the other system we still had a chance to win skillfully.

Now, it seems we don't have that chance. Combat needs tweaking but I wouldn't look past other issues like weapon quality and speed, damage output and combat skill/training.

So much work! And I'm still downloading... hopefully I'll be able to test this new system soon.

[Roahn]

So much work! And I'm still downloading... hopefully I'll be able to test this new system soon.

I hope it works for you too, Zhai. I miss you! Come back!

-Roahn

[zanzibar]

Timed Attacks / Hit and Run Attacks = Cheating, Cheesy, and Cheap.

I'm glad they're finally gone!  Things will be fairer now.  No more treating the game like an arcade game.  No more abuse of the game mechanics in duels.

Impossible to protect yourself from being attacked from behind?  That's great!  It's called a backstab!

Anhiliation of mobile dueling?  Excellent!  I've been asking for this for a while!



The only reason you should run while in a duel is if you're running away from the fight, in which case you should LOSE.  However, people have been exploiting the fact that the duel carries on.  If you want an arcade game, go play Soldier of Fortune II and find a knives-only server.

[ramlambmoo]

Fighting should be about character skill, not player skill.  That's pretty much what this combat system is trying to accomplish.

This is entirely correct.  A new player should not have to learn some obscure method of jumping in and out of combat and 'timing' their attacks to fairly duel with other players.  All the old system did was to give people with a working knowledge of the attack system an advantage over other people.  PS combat is about simulating what would happen to the characters.  There should be little need for excessive player skill.  If thats what you want, go play a FPS, honestly.

Additionally the new changes will improve the NPC behavior so that players can not do this to NPC's and kill them without them landing a blow on the player.  For that reason that feature I imagine will definitely not be taken out no matter how much it messes with PvP, unless a way to keep the old system (which is unlikely to be wanted as I said above) while fixing the npc problem.  And personally, this is just me, but I don't see that likely to happen 

It's unfortunate if you came accustomed to and found fun the old system, because that's not how it was meant to be.

[Gharan]

Timed Attacks / Hit and Run Attacks = Cheating, Cheesy, and Cheap.

I'm glad they're finally gone!  Things will be fairer now.  No more treating the game like an arcade game.  No more abuse of the game mechanics in duels.

Impossible to protect yourself from being attacked from behind?  That's great!  It's called a backstab!

Anhiliation of mobile dueling?  Excellent!  I've been asking for this for a while!



The only reason you should run while in a duel is if you're running away from the fight, in which case you should LOSE.  However, people have been exploiting the fact that the duel carries on.  If you want an arcade game, go play Soldier of Fortune II and find a knives-only server.

Have you even tried the new system?

To put it in one sentence, it's now purely luck and there is absolutely no skill involved, it's just push a button and hope you win.

[zanzibar]

Have you even tried the new system?

Yes, and I like it.

To put it in one sentence, it's now purely luck and there is absolutely no skill involved, it's just push a button and hope you win.

Sounds perfect.   http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=23232.0

Once different strategies are added to the game, including bonuses against certain types of armour by certain types of weapons, things will get slightly more complicated.



Planeshift is a roleplaying game, not an arcade game.  Even as an arcade game, duelling relied heavily on things like bugs and lag.  Hit and run attacks used to be illegal, and then the devs gave up trying to enforce it because too many people were doing it.  I'm happy with the changes.

[Gharan]

Well some people like to PvP, I see nothing wrong with that. I'm big on RP and PvP and if everyone frowns on PvP in general I suggest removing duelling altogether and levels/stats. It seems the only people happy with the system are people who don't duel in general.

In the new system you autostance correct? Wouldn't that mean a dagger users chances have also been dramatically improved due to it's timing?

Why the only attacking from the front system? Is there back invincible to a dagger/sword/axe? I think not.

And for people who say "go to another game". Why? Can't someone like RP and PvP?
Does the fact they duel make them frowned upon?

[neko kyouran]

RP and PVP don't have to be two different entities.

You can attack someone's back.  You just have to be facing it.  You can't attack something when you're facing the opposite direction from it.

Autostance is set to full defensive.  In full defensive you deal no damage.  Dagger speed doesn't help.

[zanzibar]

Well some people like to PvP, I see nothing wrong with that.

I love player killing as well.  I have over 95 duel points on my main character.  (65, really, because I lost 30 due to a bug.)  My main character is hated by some as a serial killer.  So I definately have a fondness for PvP.

Why the only attacking from the front system? Is there back invincible to a dagger/sword/axe? I think not.

I thought that you can backstab someone, you just can't hit someone who's standing behind you?

Does the fact they duel make them frowned upon?

It's the way you duel which is the problem.

[ramlambmoo]

And for people who say "go to another game". Why? Can't someone like RP and PvP?
Does the fact they duel make them frowned upon?

You can RP and PvP, but you have to accept that 'PvP' is going to be defined as how the development team wants it.  If you want RP and PvP that depends heavily on player skill and obscure knowledge, I suggest you'd best find another game rather than waste your time trying to convince the team to change it to how you want it.