new combat style

[Rongar Elani]

Greetings everyone,

well, i have only been here in PS since 6 months ago or something, so i havent been around, when hit&run duels were called abusing the game mechanics or cheating, nor did i know, that it was illegal to fight like this. But what i can say is, that if I were a sword swinging guy in RL, who would have to fight someone, I wouldnt stand still either, if one good slash from my opponent would kill me instantly. I would skip around him, avoid him and try to get into his back or his side, and since most of the duels i fought [and that arent too less] were one-hit-kill duels, i did transfer the style i would use in RL, to PS. I apologize for the lack of knowledge i have, due to my late joining to PS, but i cannot understand, why running (or even moving is considered as cheating. I would do so in RL too, i would get a nice distance to my opponent, prepare my strike and rush into him, and if i failed, id repeat the whole procedure. Of course, this is a game, and comparing it to RL might sound silly to some of you. But I think it shows how careful Id be, if my life was in danger. And since this is a roleplaying game, i am allowed to roleplay my character, like i want, and if I want to let my personal way of sight influence my game character, it shouldnt be forbidden.

Now some of you will say: "you can still fight like before, hit&run is still possible" Yes, that is true, you can still make a new shortcut with /stopattack and if you failed to hit your opponent, you can start over again, but since your opponent has the possibility to stay in stance, it is like fighting someone, who swings his sword blindly, every 2 seconds, like a berserk. At least I dont want to be near such a fighter. I really appreciate the work the devs have done, in order to improve the duel/fighting system, and i do not mean to be rude or respectless to them or to anyone here with another opinion, than mine, but I can say, that the PvP system, like it was before, was IMO way better and more realistic than it is now. It was not perfect, you had not only to fight your opponent, you also had to fight some "bugs", as for example the pushing and pulling, you were effected by, when running in duels while in stance, or the instant-hit-kills on the other hand. (some people really called this a feature) To the last one: I do not really know, if it was a bug, because i heard someone saying, that the devs added this to the game code, to give ppl with bad connections the chance, to win against ppl with good connections. True or not, I hated it, it didnt have anything to do with your own duel skills, and i felt sorry for everyone, I killed due to this "feature".


If i could decide, I would change the combat system, to what it was before the update, hit&run is the ONLY way, to win a duel, axes vs daggers for example. Of course, i could switch to daggers, im maxed in every weapon skill (well, since swd goes higher than 80, you can leave this one out of consideration) and now that my STR is 200, i could one-hit-kill my opponent also with daggers, what was hardly possible before. But if everyone would do so, the devs wouldnt have to support or to invent any other weapon type anymore, because if daggers are the only way to have a chance in battle, everyone will stick to them from now on. Entire Yliakum would be populated with dagger fighters; swords, axes, hammers and whatever was planned to be implemented in the furure will become pointless. And your chance on winning a duel then, would be 50/50, if you fight someone with the same amount of training (stats and weaponskills). Before the update, you were able to defeat a higher skilled fighter (again, stats and weaponskills) and this was perfectly fine with me. Because otherwise, if someone challenges you, you would only have to check the other one's description (or now, to use the nice humanoid glyph  ) and when you see, that your opponent is either weaker or stronger than you, only accept the challenge or decline it.

If you only see the stats and skills behind the fighter, the new system might seem like an improvement to you, but i also see the experience and the training in duels, many players obtained in their 2nd life in Yliakum, and now, due to the new combat system, all this means a damn nothing. If you werent good in hit&run duels, okay, but it was trainable, you made experience and you got better and better every time. To train anything now, is pointless, as there is nothing to train, except for stats and skills. The new combat system didnt add a new skill to PS (which also wasnt planned at all, i know ), but it has taken out one of the skills, that meant most to me, and im sure to many other people: your own duel skill!


Now go on, agree with me or disagree with me, ignore me or offend me, tell me to go play another game or whatever, i wanted to make my statement, and so have I done now.

[zanzibar]

Rongar Elani, what is your reaction to my criticisms of the old system?

[Isra]

  Awessome!! Finaly!!

ok now this  alone is reason enough to get my A## back in Hydlaa plaza .
Really now , i do agree with most of the arguments about beeing able to move in a fight , but the "movements" , dodges and other things should be linked to  character skills and stats not the player bashing keys . So yes i`m VERY happy with click the attack and wait for the results . If by player skil you understand the player ability to bash 1000000 keys / second and time the process aswell , as in bash key 102 at exactly 0.12231 seconds from the combat start , then this type of player skill should have no place in PS . Go play a shooter and attempt to get a headshot on the guy behind the wall while jumping backwards and twisting in mid-air or somethig . The runing back-and-forth attempting to time your attack requires only one skill : avoiding game mechanics lvl 30 or higher
As for PvP , I am a big suporter of it , actually free all-around PvP , that is the ability to attack anyone anywhere would be great in later stages of the game , however with SERIOUS implications for killing other people , if caught ofcourses , such as (NPC)guards baning you from the towns , NPC`s denying you services prison time or such . Anyone remember the consequences of killing a guard or two in Morrowind?
Ofcourse this will only be posible when Death Realm is actually completed to some degree and death becomes a "serious" thing , not just a free trip to a vendor . PvP in RPG`s should NOT be similar with PvP in FPS`s , where the emphasis is on geting 1000 kills/game and on top of it that l337 uber h3adshot

[Gharan]

Go play a shooter and attempt to get a headshot on the guy behind the wall while jumping backwards and twisting in mid-air or somethig . The runing back-and-forth attempting to time your attack requires only one skill : avoiding game mechanics lvl 30 or higher

Why should we? We play PS because it's the best RP game around, telling us to "play another game" because we disagree that dueling changed for the worse is idiotic. Yes there's no player skill involved now but levels don't matter much either, making duels pretty pointless altogether.

[Roahn]

If you want to duel people using OOC player skills, go play Subspace: Continuum.  Planeshift is a roleplaying game, and as such, it is the skill of your character that should make the most difference.

Zanzibar, I've tried to ignore your posts, but you keep saying the same thing over and over again. You make many assumptions about what Planeshift is "meant to be." Yes, Planeshift is a roleplaying game. But it is also a monster-smacking game, a PvP game, a war game, a game of chance (I consider looting rogues and hoping for the "jackpot" of a silverweave to be akin to a slot machine), a social gathering, and a dating service. Planeshift is any sort of game you wish to make it.

It is apparent that YOU do not wish to have player skills influence the outcome of a duel. A couple others probably agree with you. However, the vast majority of the large groups of people that regularly get together in the DR to enjoy the PvP part of Planeshift would disagree with you.

Much RP also involves some sort of PvP. Look at the major RPs that have taken place this last year. Most of the long-term RPs as well as short-term RPs have had PvP at their center. Dwarvesbane and their war with Dwarven Star, the Magi/Outlaws war, the slavers war... Hours and hours of RP were involved in these battles. If the devs take the excitement out of PvP and turn it into a coin-toss to decide the outcome, and I think much of the interest of Planeshift will vanish. Nothing left to do but stand around and god-mod.

Hit and run attacks almost completely bipass the game mechanics.  They bipass character skills in favour of player skills. 
You are mistaken.

Using Hit and run attacks is USING the game mechanics as created by the devs, not bypassing it. Also they do not bypass character skills... they are merely another variable. Player skill + character training + weapon quality + luck. If anything bypasses character skills, it is overpowered weapons. When someone with a relatively low skill kills a maxed character in one hit, then training skills to a high level become a waste of time. If you do 220 hp damage per hit, you'll kill anyone in one hit. Training higher so you do 450 hp damage is purely overkill.

Hit and Run attacks, in duels, is cheating.

This is a completely and utter lie. If Hit and Run attacks are cheating, where is this rule listed in the handbook that states this? Why are people not being banned en mass for dueling? Why has a GM never come to the DR while a dozen people are using Hit and Run attacks and said "Stop, cheater!"

Just because you don't want to fight someone who learns the combat system doesn't mean that using that system is cheating.

-Roahn

[Volund]

I really think this will turn into powerleveling game, I made this thread so people could talk about this, and like rongar said running while someone chases you with a sword is smart, jumping around and slashin em is tactical, better experience and more fun, with the new combat system its *click* 1.4 seconds hes dead yay, .98 duel points for me, Im awesome!!!!" I liked when people timed, worked for their player skills not click "DAM I died...son of a ulbar"

[zanzibar]

Oh no, Roahn, hit and run attacks do bipass the game mechanics.  Not only are you bipassing certain game mechanics - you're bipassing those mechanics by exploiting others.  As far as learning how to duel using hit and run attacks, I've pretty good at it, so I don't dislike it for lack of personal ability.

@Volund:  Some people play this game without ever getting into a single duel.

[Zan]

Sounds like a system I'd love .. not that I duel much.

[Rongar Elani]

Rongar Elani, what is your reaction to my criticisms of the old system?

Sorry? I dont get that question. And just "Rongar" will do 

[Rell]

Not much to say here other than the fact that I hate the new combat system.
It's boring and no fun, and duels are as Gharan said, pointless.
Press the button move in and pray. Or run around like an idiot attempting to get
behind your opponent, risky due to lag (he could be behind you.)
Either way you might as well roll 2 cubes and have the low roller /die.

I noticed on moving NPCs I can never hit them till they stop due to not facing
and them not being where my client tells me I guess, another annoyance
for me I don't like camping and like to run around like an idiot.

Quote:

If you want an arcade game, go play Soldier of Fortune II and find a knives-only server.

Go play a shooter

Sure just tell people to leave the game that's what we need.

Has anyone ever heard of an action roleplaying game???

[Isra]

ok , again , PvP is necesary, imperative , with out PvP PS would never be complete . I dare say there can be no real RP without at least the posibility of PvP
action-game style PvP , in my humble opinion , does NOT belong in a RPG game
action role playing games as some games are called are fun , i play them , I play shooters aswell , i enjoy fast-paced action and adrenaline rushes every now and then , but these games are NOT rpg`s , no even so cold action rpg`s are NOT ROLE playing games .
Combat in Planeshift , especialy PvP , is FAR from functional at the moment , much less perfect . But things seem to be moving in the right way
 "Either way you might as well roll 2 cubes and have the low roller /die"

hmm...well A LOT of cubes actually , or dies , to calculate all the variables (eventualy) present in combat such as weapon type vs armor type , chanche to hit , to miss and so on...and get the result "x hits Y" for # dmg" , " Y dodges X `s hit" ...this is the way characters (should) perform dodges , evades , sneack attacks and such things , not by bashing the keys and by the Player knowing better then his oponent Player when to move forward and backwards

Remember it`s not you in there , it`s your character . The player skill should manifest it`s self (eventualy, in a final version) in the decisions you make about your character and in what he(she) becomes


well at least this is my opinion on things and how a RPG should be . But then again , if  things go the other way , as it seems the vast majority of players now actually belive "diablo" , "dungeon siege" and "WoW" to be Role playing games (yes they are great games but not role playing games)  , it`s fine with me , after all the players are the ones that make an online game worth playing or not

and i`m not telling people to leave the game , i`m just saying that if they want "action" and"excitement" they should play shooters , i know i do

[drah]

Note to the Pro-RP-Only crowd... some of us duelers like RPing too... and when you keep telling us to go play another game... it's offensive... for one thing it's dismissive of our RP... but it's also not the way to handle maturely debating things like game mechanics... we make a few valid points... and you say "go play a shooter"... you're missing the point and making idiotic suggestions which don't help contribute to anything useful.

[Valorius Rageway]

So just stand there and "slog it out toe to toe" then?

TOTALLY AWESOME!

Fixed.

Real sword fights are highly mobile affiars. There is lots of bursting in and out, circling, and sprinting. NO ONE just stands there and stabs each other. It is totally unrealistic, totally uninvolving....boring.

To an extent, yes.  But hit and run attacks in PS do not reflect that.  They're of a
 very different nature.

To the contrary, the running attack capabilities, with the exception of being able to run right through an opponent, were FANTASTIC before this fix. Unique, and perfectly suited to the various timing delays of the weapons. And whats more, i can STILL do all those things, but now it requres even more timing and practice, meaning once perfected, my edge will be even more prohibitive against somone who's not bothered to take the time to set up key bindings and learn the basics of moving combat.

Ver 03018 has taken the very STRENGTH of PS, the absolutely FANTASTIC mobile combat, and is trying to relegate itself into another point and click bore-a-thon that requires no skill, actually ENCOURAGES powerleveling, and in essence makes you no more than an interested bystander as your combat is resolved by stats alone, requiring no more than a mouse click of input.

Again, after many more hours ingame, there is widespread hatred of this new rule. Yes....hatred.

*edit*

Note to the Pro-RP-Only crowd... some of us duelers like RPing too... and when you keep telling us to go play another game... it's offensive... as it's dismissive of our RP.

In my experience it is the dueling crowd that actually does MOST of the RPing.

**edit**

ANYONE that wants to learn the basics of dueling shoot me a /tell in game anytime, and i'll gladly teach you. Those non-duelers among you are missing out entirely on one of the true strengths of PS, it's absolutely fantastic pvp dueling/mobile attacking capabilities.

Having this system is absolutely beneficial to the RP quality of the game. Cebot is a fantastic RPer and one of the top duelists. I dont see how driving people like him away is going to increase RP quality for anyone. It will only hurt the game.

I think whats at play is laziness among many RPers who cant be bothered to spend 30 mins to learn to duel/fight on move, and who get miffed when they subsequently get owned in duels by those that have.

Moving in melee combat is no "exploit", it's just plain common sense. No two ways about it.

Go play a shooter and attempt to get a headshot on the guy behind the wall while jumping backwards and twisting in mid-air or somethig . The runing back-and-forth attempting to time your attack requires only one skill : avoiding game mechanics lvl 30 or higher

Why should we? We play PS because it's the best RP game around, telling us to "play another game" because we disagree that dueling changed for the worse is idiotic. Yes there's no player skill involved now but levels don't matter much either, making duels pretty pointless altogether.

EXACTLY. It was best RP around and ALSO had a fantastic mobile combat system to boot! Best of both worlds it was!

Please unfix it devs.

[Eila]

If you want to duel people using OOC player skills, go play Subspace: Continuum.  Planeshift is a roleplaying game, and as such, it is the skill of your character that should make the most difference.

Hit and run attacks almost completely bipass the game mechanics.  They bipass character skills in favour of player skills.  Hit and Run attacks, in duels, is cheating.

Here is something that might astound you, I know many if not most of the duelers in this game. All of them, without exception, are exceptional RPers (to the core). They are dedicated to this world, through and through. They roleplay even in the most strenuous of duels and they RP passionately when not dueling. Dueling has become an integral part of RP. Its what makes a warrior a warrior, a ranger a ranger, a fighter a fighter.

In the real world, a swordsman doesn't do what you claim he should do. Mobility is the key to combat, specially when you are outclassed. A fencer does not stand staticly before his opponent in real life. Why should that now be disabled here?

A character's skill already has a huge impact on a duel's outcome. Since its obvious you've had little or no experience dueling, perhaps you might consider trying it. Hit and run attacks is real, its how real fights occur. Perhaps you were planning to stand before the Ulber and let character skills apply there too?

Eila

[dying_inside]

WHAT!? you mean I cant fight my opponent when I cant even see them? How ludicrous!