Whining.

[Nurahk]

This is going to turn into a flame war almost instantaneously, and that'll just go to prove my point.

Either way, it should be said, and who better to say it than me...some random Planeshifter.

The Problem
As of late there have been many threads that center on complaining about changes.  I call these "Whining Threads", they serve no purpose except to make the poster feel like he is right and like he is the victim.  Now, most of these threads don't start off that bad.  They rarely begin with an argument about why they disagree with the change, barely ever well structured and, for the most part, unreasonable.  That would be terrible in a mature community but, here we are plagued with many people who are less than intelligent[size=0pt], like Datruth![/size]and so, it's worse that that.  What one must understand is that though you may think the decision was a bad one, it is still a matter of opinion and the Devs' opinions overule you when you are talking about their game (Mostly refering to Talad here).  You can, of course, have your opinion heard, but so can others.  Most of the time others will have opinions such as "Stop whining" or "You are an idiot", except written in such a way that it is not a flame, if you can put up with this, then good for you, go express your opinions.  Otherwise, please accept that you can not turn this into a flame war, the thread will end up locked, so either ignore the thread after posting or do you best to ignore the flames that come your way.

The new type of combat put into the game is horrible, its more of a bane to dueling than the lag in my opinion, you have to face the enemy, the attacks dont stop and timing is all off, I would like to have it put back the old way I know that many others would want it back the old way

From new combat style thread.

This is how not to start a thread.  I would like to point out that though it may be true, it is terribly stated.  No offense to the poster but, he should have expected his thread to be turned into a flame war, locked and then ignored.  You do not discuss or back up your points and it has a tone of "Complaining" more than "Argueing".

A bit better

It's like the PVP duelling now uses a similar or identical repeat-attack-mechanism to that used when killing mobs... this means you can't do a timed-attack... pause, evaluate and initiate another timed-attack easily.

If you haven't done much PVP duelling, no disrespect.. but I wouldn't expect you to understand!!

Sure the game mechanics looked like you were slashing forward when you attacked people behind you (or to the side)... but "imagine" or "roleplay" that the attack was a slash behind... or a slash to the side of the player and all is fine.

Right now.. you effectively can't slash behind or to the side of you. --- I could understand this for killing mobs.. but in duels it's become essential... unless they change the game mech. to allow you to turn around as quick as you can in real life!!

More importantly though.. the overall duelling technique requires you to start an attack... and then stop the repeated attacking before you can do a properly timed attack again... I think (though I could be wrong)... that this auto-attack / timing thing may be what most people object to and should be considered the more MAJOR issue with the changes.

If anyone else thinks otherwise, please feel free to correct me... I'm just going off how I feel about the PVP system.

  Same thread

Had it been started like this, an intellectual debate may have then occured, notice the tone of argueing or debating.  It probably would have been turned into a flame war but, it's not a certainity.

The thread should have been placed in the wish list though, and not general discussion.  You are asking for this, not demanding it, for the simple reason that no, you cannot demand stuff from the Devs.

Solutions/Pointers
Whining threads are a terrible thing, they seem to sprout whenever there is a change.  One must understand that though you may not like something, others do.  As stated before, it is a matter of opinion.  To bring your case forward without confronting the a few different opinions is a gesture of immaturity.  Immaturity attracts immaturity and so, your thread ends up a flame war.

Ignoring peoples opinions and not changing your argument or addressing the opinions is another sign of immaturity.  We are not here to yell our opinion at others until they adopt it, we want to assess which opinion is the strongest.  Without doing this, your thread will become a flame war.

Attacking the poster and not the opinion is a logical fallacy (Meaning, if you know logic at all, you don't do it).  This will quickly turn your thread into a flame war.



Don't feed the trolls!  If somebody ignores any of these three pointers or is just being an idiot then ignore him.  Ask him to rewrite his post, be kind to him and he will be kind to you.  "Zomg!  You are a troll and I hates you" will result in a flame war as will "Stop talking about yourself in the third person".

Following these three pointers and a bit of common sense should help you keep your thread flame free.
It's all very simple and mainly cetralized around acting like an adult and using some common sense.

But Nurahk, I followed all these and they still haven't changed the game yet!

Expecting the Devs to receive sudden enlightement and adopt your opinion will result in dissapointment.  Look at it logicaly.

1) The Devs changed it that way so they a) Wanted it that way or b) Thought that the change was needed.
2) The Devs do this as a hobby, it takes hours to write code, chances of them then throwing away that code is slim.
and 3) There is never only one correct opinion.

Devs are people too!
This brings us to our next point.  The Devs do this as a hobby, some treat it as a job, spending tons of their free time on it no matter what.  This brings up two points, 1, that they probably don't have the time to examine each opinion and so yours may get overlooked and 2, it is their game, their hobby, straight up telling them that they made a mistake is rude.

As Xordan said

Well generally whiners can (Crude action followed by death) before I pay much attention to them any more;
Constructive comments are fine, whining and making petitions and crap isn't

And Karyuu

When someone makes a well thought-out and polite request, I will do everything I can to see that they receive what they want. When someone makes a rude demand, even if it will cost me the bare minimum of effort to give into, I will laugh and walk away.

If you are rude, the Devs aren't going to waste their limited time on you.

Conclusion

Be careful what you post.  Keep in mind the feelings of others, when you get that little "Hehe, he's not going to like this", rewrite your post.  All arguements should be impersonal.

And don't be an idiot or a troll.

There are, of course, many things I missed.  I'm not perfect.  If you wish to point them out politely, please do so.  If you want to point them out impolitely, feel free, I may hate flaming but, I'm damn good at it.  It would be best if this stayed as a thread about how to avoid flaming and I would appreciate if people respected that.  Not that I expect them to.

[Parallo]

Topic split from:  http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27560.0     --Neko
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Nurahk, you just articulated all the thoughts about Planeshift that have been running through my head since the server went down the day the update was announced. Seriously; whiners, read this.

[Suno_Regin]

I don't see what the big deal is...so what if the combat system changed? It's for the better anyway. The game mechanics say when you dodge a hit, or a hit misses. You don't need to run around like an idiot mashing down your mouse button to duel.

[Nurahk]

I agree with you, Suno.  As do many people.  I'll ask that we keep that thread slightly seperate though, I don't want the argument to just spill into here

[neko kyouran]

I won't let it.   

[drah]

The same is true for those who use straw-man arguments to intentionally down-play the genuine upset or disapproval of others.  The same is true for those who use sarcasm to do the same against those expressing dismay or disappointment at changes. 

I've seen both these in that other thread, from the side that shared your opinion Nurahk.

I'm not saying anything against you... but I'm just saying that the problems in debate aren't one-sided... with those against the changes being the 'baddies'. 

Where the few were whining about the changes.. there were also a few antagonizing and exasperating the situation... which predictably caused others to get frustrated.

There are people on both sides here to blame for that thread devolving in the way it did.

@Neko .. in that case please remove Suno's misinformation, it is in itself inaccurate and misrepresents the arguments being made in the other thread... "mashing down your mouse button to duel" wasn't even a part of that argument and only shows his misunderstanding of the subject matter of the other thread (or at least misunderstanding of people's primary argument). --- By posting something as incorrect as that, it'll only instigate people posting to correct him, especially with the other thread being closed and no longer open to further debate.

[lordraleigh]

Looks like the old "You're a tester, suck it up. If you don't like it, leave" kind of message was improved to something much more argumentative and logical and add some more things as well. But I think this is some kind of defense for the way the dev team works.

And don't be an idiot or a troll.

An indirect offensive comment targeted towards many, except for the devs of course. Of course indirect offensive comments like this one can be regarded as some kind of flame to bait the so called "idiots" and "trolls".

When someone makes a well thought-out and polite request, I will do everything I can to see that they receive what they want. When someone makes a rude demand, even if it will cost me the bare minimum of effort to give into, I will laugh and walk away.

Simply saying "I will fully ignore it" would be enough, the final of this phrase seems to be arrogant and spreading it in the forums is a bad way to present the community to the dev team, as I'm sure Karyuu just got mad to say such thing(I will avoid pre-emptive judgements about it).

Don't feed the trolls!

Don't challenge them either, as it will surely be a pretext for them acting out with their flames.


For last, I don't think the devs, moderators, gms, etc. need people to defend them, they are pretty capable of defending themselves on regard to such things.

Another thing is that my posts were lost in the middle of the "crossfire" in that thread.


People will complain, even from things that are free, that's something that should be expected.

[Nurahk]

Most of the time others will have opinions such as "Stop whining" or "You are an idiot", except written in such a way that it is not a flame,

I agree completely, Drah, that's what I was trying to get across here.  The thread isn't asmuch about whiners being wrong, though I personaly believe they are, it's about keeping opinion threads from spiraling into flame wars.

To Raleigh

An indirect offensive comment targeted towards many, except for the devs of course. Of course indirect offensive comments like this one can be regarded as some kind of flame to bait the so called "idiots" and "trolls".

Don't go on about indirect offensive comments, dissecting somebody's thread will always lead to stuff like that.  It was meant as a think before you leap comment.

Simply saying "I will fully ignore it" would be enough, the final of this phrase seems to be arrogant and spreading it in the forums is a bad way to present the community to the dev team, as I'm sure Karyuu just got mad to say such thing(I will avoid pre-emptive judgements about it).

Why should Karyuu have to watch everything she says?  She's still a person.  If you are rude to her is it wrong for her to laugh and walk away?

Don't challenge them either, as it will surely be a pretext for them acting out with their flames.

Challenging trolls is much like feeding them, I agree.  But once a troll is out, just ignore it, it will go away.

For last, I don't think the devs, moderators, gms, etc. need people to defend them, they are pretty capable of defending themselves on regard to such things.

They are capable of defending them, but I don't see why they should take the time out of their schedules to do so.

People will complain, even from things that are free, that's something that should be expected.

So is racism, sexism and tons of other prejudices.  Along with genocide, murder, assassination and rape.  Just because something should be expected doesn't mean it should be tolerated.

[lordraleigh]

To Raleigh

Simply saying "I will fully ignore it" would be enough, the final of this phrase seems to be arrogant and spreading it in the forums is a bad way to present the community to the dev team, as I'm sure Karyuu just got mad to say such thing(I will avoid pre-emptive judgements about it).

Why should Karyuu have to watch everything she says?  She's still a person.  If you are rude to her is it wrong for her to laugh and walk away?

People will complain, even from things that are free, that's something that should be expected.

So is racism, sexism and tons of other prejudices.  Along with genocide, murder, assassination and rape.  Just because something should be expected doesn't mean it should be tolerated.

I know people get angry about things sometimes.What I meant referring to Karyuu's phrase is that it's not a good idea to quote such thing on a stickied thread, as it will make people have certain assumptions about the devs.

About the last one.

Comparing racism, etc with whining complaints is a very exaggerated thing. Still I didn't imply it should be tolerated, just that it is something common on any form of entertainment or consumer products.

Anyway I think that for now this thread has some feel of arrogance and indifference towards the community, specially by the use of offensive words and by the quotation of the wrong phrases. So I suggest avoiding the mention of "idiot" and changing Karyuu's phrase or exchanging it for a better one.

[Karyuu]

Why am I being picked on when Xordan had a "Crude action followed by death"?

[Rongar Elani]

You might call it whining, if some people are complaining about changes to something, they loved, and you might be right to a certain degree. But since almost everyone calls us not only players, but also testers, it is our duty, to point out things, that have changed to a bad way in our opinion, and it is our duty to discuss it. The "new combat system" thread went out of line, yes, i has become really ugly in the end and i do not stand for this. But the way it went was not only bad, since we had a good discussion about, why we agree or disagree with the changes. Everyone wanted to make his/her statement, in order to improve the game in its final status. Unfortunately, many people let their current disappointment or on the other side, their current elation influence their statements, so lots of the posts in "new combat system" have become emotional, which turned out to whining on one side, and arrogance on the other side.

But to open a new thread, and call it "whining" is not constructive in any way, since you pointed at everyone, who is not satidfied with the new combat system, and degraded them all to "whiners", even though, many of them just made their statement, and they did it in a civilized way, just following the order that was given to them, by calling them testers, rather than players.

However, I hope that many people will read this thread, and further i hope, noone will feel offended by you, calling them whiners, just because they do not agree with the recently made changes. If you want to have a constructive discussion, dont begin with an offense in the very beginning.

Be careful what you post.  Keep in mind the feelings of others, when you get that little "Hehe, he's not going to like this", rewrite your post.  All arguements should be impersonal.

But apart from the name of the topic, i appreciate your try, to make the discussion less offensive, and I hope everyone will stick to this from now on.

[Nurahk]

Raleigh, instead of poking at the post, why not confront the issue at hand

I'm not going to go about sanitizing my thread because the community is overly sensitive.

And the link is that not everything that should be expected should be tolerated, I used extreme examples, that's all.  It's in no way false.

Rongar:

You raise nothing but valid points, I'm impressed to be honest.

I used offensive terms to draw attention to it.  And the whiners are those who turn it into a flame war, not those who post their beliefs.  I failed to make this clear in my first post, sorry.

[Xordan]

You might call it whining, if some people are complaining about changes to something, they loved, and you might be right to a certain degree. But since almost everyone calls us not only players, but also testers, it is our duty, to point out things, that have changed to a bad way in our opinion, and it is our duty to discuss it. The "new combat system" thread went out of line, yes, i has become really ugly in the end and i do not stand for this. But the way it went was not only bad, since we had a good discussion about, why we agree or disagree with the changes. Everyone wanted to make his/her statement, in order to improve the game in its final status. Unfortunately, many people let their current disappointment or on the other side, their current elation influence their statements, so lots of the posts in "new combat system" have become emotional, which turned out to whining on one side, and arrogance on the other side.

But to open a new thread, and call it "whining" is not constructive in any way, since you pointed at everyone, who is not satidfied with the new combat system, and degraded them all to "whiners", even though, many of them just made their statement, and they did it in a civilized way, just following the order that was given to them, by calling them testers, rather than players.

However, I hope that many people will read this thread, and further i hope, noone will feel offended by you, calling them whiners, just because they do not agree with the recently made changes. If you want to have a constructive discussion, dont begin with an offense in the very beginning.

Be careful what you post.  Keep in mind the feelings of others, when you get that little "Hehe, he's not going to like this", rewrite your post.  All arguements should be impersonal.

But apart from the name of the topic, i appreciate your try, to make the discussion less offensive, and I hope everyone will stick to this from now on.

I think you missed the (or at least a) point. We don't mind constructive criticism and discussion. We do mind people starting online petitions and other extreme methods of protest (aka whining).

[neko kyouran]

I unsticky-ed this.

The first post was really good and I thought everyone should read it, but what with the discussion I see comming, it isn't stick material any more. 

(In case any one was wondering why it became a normal thread again)

[chazarus]

I have resigned as a PS tester.

Find some other fool to tell he's a whiner and his opinion means nothing cause you have authority either here ingame or in development.

Had fun for the year I played thanks for the memories!