Author Topic: The Winch -- What are they thinking?  (Read 33578 times)

Vengeance

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2007, 07:29:06 pm »
I thought I would take a moment to point out that Roahn's original post to start this thread was a very fair criticism of the new area and not what I would consider "whining."  :-)

There are two separate issues here:

a) Using a quest structure to "unlock" areas and gain access to things.  This type of framework is going to (slowly) become more and more a part of PS, as we turn a new level into a "carrot" for getting people interested in questing and not just zerking or camping or crafting.

b) NPCs are stupid and dialog is hard to guess, etc.  I am working on some Inventory things right now, but next on my plate is to really work on some tools to help Settings know where people are struggling with the quests and with dialog in general, and to help make the NPCs smarter, and therefore easier to play with.  Now that we actually have some active Settings people, I hope you will see big improvements in this area in the coming months.

Hope that helps,
Vengeance

Nurahk

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2007, 07:43:17 pm »
And a third, Vengeace.  From what I gather there is a lockout for quests after somebody gets it.  As in player B can't get the quest until 15 minutes after player A does.

And yeah, your sabbatical? :P

Nikodemus

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2007, 07:46:17 pm »
Nobody would complain if you could talk to a NPC like normal person, or at least imitating it. The problem isnt in how much the NPC knows, but in the communication. When you ask about entering the area, he just tell you makes no sense. And you have to enter it becuse of important reason.
Damn, how hard it is to tell someone you want to enter and then positively answered or told you can't because of some reasons. But no, NPCs won't do that 99% of the time. And you don't know if what you ask for can be ever answered or is there are some other reasons like timing.

This is getting ridiculous. I'm seriously considering making a spoilers database of everything you can talk with NPCs and spreading it (of course in semi-hidden/restricted way along the silent agreement. ).
Guys in charge, you are forbidding spoilers (what i'm happy of so far...) but if NPCs communicaton stay as it is, a spoiler will be the only way out.
to enter the winch say that:
to get glyph A do quest X before.
Quests A glyph unlocks Y quest.
and so on Yada yada yada.

But even if wrong, I find it more interesting to go along such spoiling guide, rather than talk with the NPCs. I'm almost sounding like a whinner. But while you say you can do nothing about people who put these spoilers somewhere, at the same time the questing system is still the same, encouraging people for spoiling.

I better go drink a cup of cappucino, before i say too much and forget about the damn thing, before i lost my sanity. Thats the only way if you want to continue playing PS.

EDIT: thank you Vengeance, I just hope the NPC communication will get better. I hope you have few good idea.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 07:48:16 pm by Nikodemus »



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Caarrie

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2007, 07:58:12 pm »
Please remember there are quest lockouts per quest and per char so you can all get locked out a quest for a time period because the npc does not need your help.

lordraleigh

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2007, 09:04:07 pm »
There should be a way to access such places that doesn't involve quests. I mean, if your character is widely known as a honorable and reputable one from the "upper class" of merchants, why would his access to the winch be blocked?

Also where is the black market?

Roahn

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2007, 09:11:17 pm »
Please remember there are quest lockouts per quest and per char so you can all get locked out a quest for a time period because the npc does not need your help.

Yes, but it would be nice if the NPC would respond in a way so we would know this. "Come back in 15 minutes" or "I will never give you this quest" or "Keep asking me over and over again until I finally change my mind."

The current system reminds me of Bart Simpson asking Homer if they can go to an amusement park:
Bart: "Can we go to the amusement park?"
Homer: "No"
Bart: "Can we go to the amusement park?"
Homer: "No"
Bart: "Can we go to the amusement park?"
Homer: "No"
Bart: "Can we go to the amusement park?"
Homer: "No"
Bart: "Can we go to the amusement park?"
Homer: "No"
Bart: "Can we go to the amusement park?"
Homer: "No"
Bart: "Can we go to the amusement park?"
Homer: "Yes"

-Roahn

Jeraphon

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2007, 09:29:00 pm »
Quote
I enjoy doing the quests... and I appreciate the hard work and thought that has gone into some of them.

Why thank you! I'll try to address some of your concerns as best I can.

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I'm not advocating PURE multiple-choice... but I think, for quests... if there are certain phrases to use, we could do with them being options for us... rather than a guessing game on the exact phrase/context/grammar/etc to us.

Duly noted and we are honestly trying to increase the number of key phrases, as well as make some slightly more obvious. It should be more noticeable in the newer quests, but going back to the older quests will take time. I do think we have a better track record than some of the old text adventure games, though.

Quote
some quests require you to provide the full name of the NPC who sent you, while others don't... to anyone unaware of this... and who have gotten used to the format of phrases used in the majority of quests.... it will lead to frustrated players, it is inevitable.

I've noticed this too and I agree with you. It's my intent to fix it so that in all quests, at least the first name will work if not both the first and full names.

EDIT! Two more got fixed in this respect. If you find any others that don't accept a first name, only a full name, please submit to the bugtracker.

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many quests require "about [keyword]" to be used... this seemed to be standard for a while... NOW it appears some responses will NOT be triggered if the word "about" is prefixed...

Not sure why this is.

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Saying "tell about [keyword]" to an NPC triggers a response... this is more a command (like picking an item from a multiple-choice list of responses) than it is dialog... and again causes even more confusion to the NPC dialog system.

^^ That said, I also like the freedom to ask about things and be surprised by the hidden information NPCs have if you probe them with questions.

I think "tell about x" works because short words like "me" are ignored, and it's taken to mean "tell me about x." (which is dialogue and not command.) I could be wrong about this point.

Quote
I think for pivotal phrases... especially mid-quest... it'd be nice to have the key-phrases as options... but not necessarily to replace the freeform dialog that exists.

Sounds rather tricky to give options in a freeform dialogue. Um...but I'll keep it in mind?

Quote
Anyway... for me, it's not a big issue... eventually someone finds out the answer... and when they do it's usually not long before I learn about it... I'm merely just suggesting something that may smooth out some rough edges in the NPC dialog system.

And it's appreciated, especially when your criticisms are constructive. As Vengeance said, it's being worked on. Settings is more active so we'll have the ability to do some edge-smoothing. Thanks, and enjoy the quests.

To lordraleigh: Doing quests gets you known by the NPCs. Sure, you might have a reputation with the PCs and that's great, but there's no way to code "is well-known by PCs" into the winch door. Get in good with the NPCs and you'll be "honourable and reputable" in their eyes. If you're roleplaying a popular character, I think doing those quests is consistent.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 09:50:52 pm by Jeraphon »

Caarrie

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2007, 09:38:36 pm »
A lot of the setting to the game is found on the main site but remember if you want to know more about the setting doing a few quests or talking to the npcs is the only way to find out more they can help you come up with more role play options then just going with what you see on the main site.

Parallo

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2007, 09:41:20 pm »
And checking random things' description. That helps too.
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

Nikodemus

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2007, 10:29:15 pm »
To be more precise and helpfull from my side.
It is fully right path that you will have to interact with NPCs to do some very basig things. Everything would be fine about it, if before this is being implemented the NPC communication wouldn't cause problems at all. You will never get a message that NPC doesn't know what you are aying about, unless you are really talking with no sense.
If there is no response, the NPC should ask you what you meant. <-- this is the only feature i can think of, besides that the NPC should have giant dictionary of responses to sentences said in loads of different ways.

If you won't fix it, but keep implementing things where you have to communicate with NPC to do somthing... We may reach a situation when to avoid punishment from the guards, or just pay the fine, you have to speak with a NPC. If you won't manage it, (most likely because of communication problem, being all the same since first days of CB), then you become outlaw, banned from a city, and hunted down by ever guard. Only becase the damn NPC guard couldn't understand you wanted to pay him 100 tria.
...if you want to know more about the setting doing a few quests or talking to the npcs is the only way to find out more they can help you come up with more role play options...
It is not valid as long as the NPC communication isn't working.

You need to make the NPC communication develop to a degree when a player won't have problems to communicate, without of use any kind of spoilers.
I don't feel right telling what should be done and what shouldn't, but you know there is something in what i write. Thank you for reading it



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Jackdaw

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2007, 10:30:01 pm »
I actually want to applaud whoever came up with the whole concept around the winch.

Having done the quest, I now am tremendously intrigued by what I find in the winch. Yes it took a little time to get the quest, but it shouldn't be that easy to get access to this new area. Unlikely you will ever run across a noob there.

I love all the assumptions about who should have automatic access in or that there should be alternate routes. I'm waiting to see what the GMs and devs do with this place.

eldoth_terevan

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2007, 10:44:26 pm »
Yeah, I was spamming this NPC along with everyone else. Couple of my alts still are. However I wanted to mention this behavior:

1) Character goes to this NPC with the first quest done (and showing in the quest log).
2) Kept spamming him until he offered me the second quest.
3) Kept spamming him after he offered me the second quest, missed saying 'yes' by accident.
4) Kept spamming until he offered me the first quest (that I already had) and said yes.
5) Did first quest a second time, and then carefully spammed him until I got the second quest -- finally.

So, in this case, I had the first quest done and there was some kind of rollover on the quest and I got the first quest again. After I did it that time I was able to spam the NPC until he gave the second quest.

Seytra

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2007, 11:07:37 pm »
A lot of the setting to the game is found on the main site but remember if you want to know more about the setting doing a few quests or talking to the npcs is the only way to find out more they can help you come up with more role play options then just going with what you see on the main site.
Is that 100% guaranteed to be part of the settings? I have heard rumors that NPC dialogues aren't necessarily part of the settings, anyway. Especially the Ojaveda "quarantine" doesn't actually sound like part of the settings, and more like well-meant but ends-up-confusing dragging of OOC into IC.

Edit: OK, thanks, Caarrie.


@ Options: A way to have "options" in a free-form dialog would be to not provide options as one knows them, but possibly an assortment of hints or hunches. These could possibly be auto-entered in the quest log for the quest they belong to.
It is a nicer form of the "diary" that other games commonly feature. An example:

You want to do a quest, but you don't know where to get one. You might start to poke random NPCs, as you do now. However, you might also have, in the quest notes, some "rumors" about stuff. Like "A guard in Hydlaa is missing his pet". These may be based on where you spend a lot of time, or the general vincinity to NPCs. Better results could come when the NPCs are actually being talked to.
Obviously, the best way at this stage of getting a quest would be if the NPCs could tell those rumors themselves, like "I don't have a job for you ATM, but I hear that some guard misses a pet.". This would allow you to narrow things down to quests that you might prefer at the time. Obviously you could narrow things down more easily by going to the guards in Hydlaa and asking "I hear someone of you is looking for his pet?", and the answers could point you to the right one much more natural than ATM. Plus, you could ask the NPC directly for that quest, instead of the general "can I help you?".

Assuming that you got a quest to retrieve a stolen Groffel from NPC Percy. You have been talking to Percy a bit, and he has been rambling on about this and that. Now is time for some hints. The quest log for "Percy's stolen Groffel" could include some hints (based on the ramblings of Percy you have heared):
Percy said that Arleena might have done something to it, because she hates Groffels.
Harnquist needs feathers for his swords and may have kidnapped it.
Sharven breeds Groffels for a hobby.
etc.

So you have some hints that you can look at if you want, and follow. It's more or less automating the log-review.
Now you could also have these "hunches". Under a separate tab, you could get, for example:
Ojaveda Outfitters might be a place to ask.
Hide merchants?
Magic shop?

Some of the "hunches" may lead nowhere.
Once you asked some NPC that is related to or part of the quest, the lists can grow. Especially the hunches can then have the "options" that are desired:
Ask Sharven about Groffel training?
Tell Sharven that you want to buy a Groffel?
etc.

IOW, you augment the dialog system by way of the quest log, rather than replacing it by an option-based one.
Quite obviously this would require some additional work. However, this seems to be much more feasible than a truly intuitive freeform system that also works with broken english.

Speaking of unfinished things. I am not sure if restricting access to areas is such a great idea, both right now and in the future. Especially now there is rather few content, so artificially restricting access to it means locking major parts of the game. It's similar to having access to glyph combos, but more elementary and more significant. It also makes less sense as, as has been stated, you can easily find a way into any area that is not watched like a fortress. Especially at nighttime, I think one could sneak in or fly in or dive in or climb in (the winch area itself may be fenced off, but certainly not the entire center hole).
To be honest, I'd much rather "make my own quest" like this than asking NPCs hoping they might give me permission (unlikely, even if only by accident).

Anyway, I think that it's too early to lock areas.

This brings me to the lockout-timer: this doesn't integrate seamlessly at all, and there isn't a real reason for it, anyway. Firstly, we all know that each and every task would realistically be given only once or twice. Then we also know that we must treat every player equally, and therefore not only give the quest one time, to one character.
So a lockout timer tries to make for a sense of exclusiveness, but it doesn't do a really good job at it. If worse comes to worse, it even emphasizes the mechanics instead of hiding them, because instead of a few people doing the same quest, you get a bunch of people at the same NPC, waiting. This problem will obviously lessen once the initial inrush is gone, but in this case I think the timer won't even be required anymore. In a way, this is the quest-equivalent of spawn-camping.

Quite obviously the same quest should be available to the same character only once (or at least based on some realism; I don't think one should be able to get the pet quest more than once, at all, while the rat infestation can be a frequent thing, even per character). However, different characters should not need to queue up for things that are otherwise designed as individual instances that can be paralellized arbitrarily.
IOW, it doesn't make sense to me: The game pretends that I am the only one to ever get that quest. However, I know that I am not, and others may even RP that quest, and then there will be "Oh, I'm doing the same thing!" (Which is why I never refer to specific quests in my RP; if anything, I add the general idea behind the quest to my char's perception of the NPCs involved). So quests IMO integrate with either MM or RPG, but not both. This means that unless a solution for this problem is found, there is no reason to serialize characters onto a quest.

On a more general quest related note, there was the problem that quests block NPCs for other quests. If this isn't fixed, then some people may get more or less permanently locked out.

I'm not sure if it helps, and I think this is more or less the way everyone feels about it, but I suppose adding why I personally don't do a lot of quests doesn't hurt.
- Quests can't often be used in RP
- I'd rather RP
- one can't deviate (quest items can't often be used as expected)
- extreme linearity (need to do X before NPC Y will even recognise the question; need to reiterate the entire dialog if you restated the start phrase, can't refer to different, unrelated quests at the same NPC)
- NPC interaction is too tedious (as explained above, plus you never know if the NPC knows what you have said and what you haven't, one can't refer to different points of the dialog chain without losing NPC memory)
- things have a very static and impersonal feeling (NPCs don't even recognise you, regardless of how many quests you have done for them; maybe this will change with the "NPC reputation")

Please note that this isn't intended as a put-down or somesuch. I know it's infinitely much easier to come up with why one dslikes something than is to make it better, even if only slightly. It is really just stating my reasons for informational purposes.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 11:20:38 pm by Seytra »

Caarrie

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2007, 11:15:19 pm »
All npc dialog and quests are written by the settings devs so that means they are part of the setting of the game.

Talad

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Re: The Winch -- What are they thinking?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2007, 11:28:31 pm »
You bring up an interesting point: if you get a "I don't need anything from you now", you really don't know if a possible quest has a prerequisite, or if the playerlockout is in the middle, in RP terms: you don't know if the NPC doesn't trust you enough or if he really doesn't need anything at the present time.

The playerlockout is made to have NPCs look a bit more real, so that harnquist will ask for a new sandwitch every 30 minutes and not every second, but surely this technique shows his limits in a case like the winch level release. Here the problem is that everyone wants to go there at the same time, just because it has been just released. This will not happen over time, and players will not arrive to that point in the game all at the same time

Criticism is well accepted, make us think to what we have to fix. Nonetheless we already have a todo list so long that's not possible to have the perfect game in few weeks. In general don't force the game, if the NPC tells you that he doesn't need help, just go away and do something else, return after few hours. Pushing the game with continuous "can I help you?" is not something that will solve the puzzle, and is not something that we will enable as a tool to solve our puzzles. Play without rush, there is no point in powerleveling in PS.