The Winch -- What are they thinking?

[Janner]

Hear is 3 very simple questions to ask a NPC.

[img=http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/364/shot01sa5.th.jpg]


Note on hummer side, were is the tree? 

[emeraldfool]

I like Seytra's idea about having 'hints'.

I mean, most games dumb down quests to accomodate the broader audiences... whereas you guys alienate most of the players for not being geniuses

Besides, I thought 7 year olds were supposed to be able to play this. Why else would 'damn' be bleeped out?

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

We have many hopes, perhaps in time ps will actually be an education in and of itself. Bear with us. Go gently.

Edit. The Entry to the winch is more difficult than you now assume. Doing the same thing over and over in a loop will not change anything.

[Under the moon]

* Under the moon abandons ever going to the Winch.

NPCs know a bit about keywords, I am assuming. If they could detect certain words out of a phase that they do understand -much like a search engine-, then recycle them back in the from of a leading yes or no question, that would be a giant step towards greater understanding and realism.

Example: to NPC "Hello, Harn, I was on my way to the Magic shop to finish this quest, but got lost. Do you know the way?"

Harn would gather all of the words he understands out of that phrase and plug them into his list of responses, then chose a follow-up question to narrow it down. He knows 'hello' as a standard greeting, so ignores it for now. He knows 'way' 'magic' 'shop' 'quest' 'lost' and 'do you'.  Now, he is obviously not going to understand this question as it is, so he grabs up the words and compares them to his list.

'Quest' and 'do you' would fit in with asking him for a quest, but that is only two words, so gets a low hit number.

'Do you' 'Magic' and 'Way' could lead to info he knows about the Glyphs. Three hits. Getting closer.

'Magic + shop' 'do you' 'way' gives him the cue to give directions, but he is not sure yet, so replies: "Hello there! (as response to your hello) Are you asking the way to the Magic shop?

Now, if you were not asking to go to the Magic Shop, you say no. He then goes back to his list of matches, and asks about the next most likely or asks you for more information on what you want. Even if he does not know what you are talking about, it gives the illusion of intelligence.

But we do want to go to the magic Shop, so we say "Why yes I am."

He picks up on 'why' and 'yes'. Given the question he just asked you, he picks out 'yes' as the keyword, and responds "Well, that's easy, you just go past the old yeller groffel, ya know the one Trayosk used to own. Though come to think of it, he does not have the little beast anymore..."

And yes, I understand how time consuming that would be to create. Perhaps that is what is already intended.

[Balonik]

I can't understand something... Is anybody here remembers good old 1985 ? Remember old adventure games on 8-bit computers? Let's say "The neverending story" for Atari XL. The game could understand simple commands as well as something like "Pick up food, leave hut, take Artax and ride east". In one sentence. Everything could be described in many ways. And that game was running on 8-bit machine with 64 kB (KILO bytes, not mega or giga!) RAM and processor running at 1.78 MHz (not 3GHz). These games were created often by one person, not a team. They were created in less then 6 months sometimes. Or "The Hobbit" for ZX Spectrum. 16kB RAM. Z80 processor. Every character in game lives his own live in real time and interacts with a player. I remember program shipped with SoundBlaster 2.0. You could talk with it about anything. On 286 PC. It's a shame we can't have something like that in PlaneShift after 5 years of development. I hope you will change it soon.... even soon^TM

[Ryiel Fohpaws]

I don't really have problems with the npcs. They understand me, more or less. About the winch quest? I'll try it again in march

[Quantus]

I've got access to Winch with several inhabitants [chars] within a short time [below a half hour].
Winch itself is a bit empty, but interesting to explore. It looks like a bit as "Hydlaa Jayose" with the lonelyness of "Bronce Doors". I don't want to say to much, but it looks like an upcomming great area and I'm very happy that we've got access to it. Thanks a lot.

[LARAGORN]

I can't understand something... Is anybody here remembers good old 1985 ? Remember old adventure games on 8-bit computers? Let's say "The neverending story" for Atari XL. The game could understand simple commands as well as something like "Pick up food, leave hut, take Artax and ride east". In one sentence. Everything could be described in many ways. And that game was running on 8-bit machine with 64 kB (KILO bytes, not mega or giga!) RAM and processor running at 1.78 MHz (not 3GHz). These games were created often by one person, not a team. They were created in less then 6 months sometimes. Or "The Hobbit" for ZX Spectrum. 16kB RAM. Z80 processor. Every character in game lives his own live in real time and interacts with a player. I remember program shipped with SoundBlaster 2.0. You could talk with it about anything. On 286 PC. It's a shame we can't have something like that in PlaneShift after 5 years of development. I hope you will change it soon.... even soon^TM

Those are some very good examples. It makes me wonder why such a simple system couldnt be used in PS. How difficult would it be to convert one such program into the PS system. I believe there are a few freeware programs out there that would handle this task very well. I have even seen some chatroom bots that seemed to be very inteligent, and most always understood what you were saying. I dont know if this type of system is already in place, it could be that it was just set up this way.

No offence intended here, but it seems that the person responsible for the NPC dialog was not a native to the english language. I know the Dev team has some new members in the settings department, and most of the NPC text will be rewritten at some point, but will the mechanics of the NPC chat system stay the same?

It is very frustrating for people who do not have a lot of time to play. Even some of the simplest quests can take a long time if you dont know the correct wording. I am lucky enough to know a lot of people who have completed most, if not all the quests, so I have the guidence of their experience. Even then I feel as a burden to them, for taking so much of their time.

Anyways, it will be interesting to see how the system will change along the way. We are an impatient bunch and seems to take forever. 

[Krann Omins]

My issue with all this; yea frikin right!! as IF people individually 'stumble' upon this quest. So many seem to admit to spamming in efforts to get the quest. Guess what? that means these people knew the 'reward' before getting it, or at least thought innocently that there 'might' another quest here (if we pretend i'd believe that). Is there anyone here who honestly thinks it matters less that people are spoiling quests in that regard than when the way to finish/do a quest is spoiled?-- the riddles & stuff, yea spoiling ruins them, but the ones where you just have to say the exact (currently not the most elegant system to put it mildly) right thing & hope you don't say the wrong thing & break your quest--  obviously have been solved by so many because so many got help, and as it is, until things are improved, it's inevitable that so many would need help to get through many quests... but that so many of us are aware of what quest does what because people just go around sharing info--that seems like a far bigger spoiler than sharing ifo about how to get through grammar issues etc of a quest they found on their own.. Anybody seen an energy glyph sell for nearly the price of other quest-glyphs lately?(ok yea occasionally, but less & less al the time)-- you think that many new players just happen to 'guess' how to get the right quest triggered etc?--or there are that many being given out for free?-- or that so few want one?

My point is to say it makes sense to be able to ask npcs about what rewards you seek & have them hint you in the right direction..
as it stands I would need to be on very expensive drugs to believe that even 50% of people with various helms, non buyable glyphs & other reward items (such as this "key") just 'happened' to trigger their quests without prior knowledge, forgetting about how they got thru the quests... THe attitude which says that kind of spoiling is okay is a big part of what fosters all out spoiling. Not that i mind spoilers at all. But if everyone is anti-spoilers then i can't help but assume at least 50% of people who 'earned' helms, non buyable glyphs, and entrance to the winch thru quests are somewhat hypocritical...

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Note:

Some players got into the winch on an exploit, this has been fixed.

No one will get the second quest raithen offers by spamming the same thing over and over. You must take an alternative path.  If you are still sitting there spamming raithen, stop and re-evaluate your approach.

[Nikodemus]

But if everyone is anti-spoilers then i can't help but assume at least 50% of people who 'earned' helms, non buyable glyphs, and entrance to the winch thru quests are somewhat hypocritical...

I didn't finish a single glyph quest and bought all of them. It is not spoiling. I buy what the market has to offer. I also didn't enter the winch. And i would have to be on serious drugs to think that most glyphs which are sold on the market are all made from a doing the given quest only once. And spoilers are mostly because it is the only way for 90% of people to make a quest.

To pass an exam you need over 50% of the points (generally) everything below this is not acceptable. Now look at the quests system and tell me it is working, while it is working in 10%, it is 5 times worse than bad.

And i'm a damn anti-spoiler, so far... I never look for exact answers to my guild personal spoilers database like you do Omnis it looks. It spoils the whole concept, only if it is not working, from other side, maybe you can't spoil something what isnt there.

[Krann Omins]

nikodemus how many times do i have to ask you not to reply to my posts?

seriously. it's enough, stop.

Every time you do I have trouble understanding your broken english- half the time i can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing (giving the impression that you may not even understand that to which you are replying)
And more to the point every time it seems like in the parts i do understand:

I never look for exact answers to my guild personal spoilers database like you do Omnis it looks. 

you are tossing a judgement or accusation or some other unsolicited unfounded negative sentiment directed at me. 

do me a favor, stop posting the negative assumptions/judgements/assessments/accusations directed at me or  just heed the requests I've made the last several times you've replied directly to something i've said and simply refrain from replying to my posts at all.

[Valorius Rageway]

Is it not obvious what they are thinking? They make a new area thats supposedly only for a select few that are permitted to enter. If it was wide open the place would have been totally packed. That would have been ludacriously against what the settings say about it. Lets face it, if they included a new field in an update everyone would be there. There is no other way to slowly distribute access.

No other way huh?

So like restricting it to people with-for instance- maxed cha and int wouldn't work. Or restricting it to people with any number of pre-qualifiers wouldn't work huh?

If you truly believe there is "no other way" then your imagination is seriously lacking.

[bilbous]

My philosophy about spoilers is to try to find quests on my own, try to do them when I find them and only ask for help if I cannot find them or work them. I find long lists of quests generally boring and while I might browse such a list I'd use it first to see who might have a quest for me or where I might get an item and only step by step if I had trouble from there. I mostly do not have time for complicated tricks and whatever. I have not joined a guild just to troll (fishing) their info because I do not have much interest in guilds otherwise and I have done few quests due to the difficulty speaking with npcs although that is getting better so the future looks hopeful.

[Parallo]

No other way huh?

So like restricting it to people with-for instance- maxed cha and int wouldn't work. Or restricting it to people with any number of pre-qualifiers wouldn't work huh?

If you truly believe there is "no other way" then your imagination is seriously lacking.

You would really restrict it by how much people have leveled your stats?