The Winch -- What are they thinking?

[Proteous]

Oh i love doing quests, and sometimes the bugs make them more fun, so dont think i am mindlessly whining, im not!! i understand that the devs have a great deal of work, and i would never EXPECT anything from a free to play game, i only get annoyed when things like this happen, where as i have done all the quests that are IG currently apart from the ones NPC's refuse to give me. I am sure that in time i will get there and eventualy the NPC's will give me the quests.. I am only moaning this time becaus i have been in game for nearly 4 years with never more than a 4 week break.. Dont get me wrong i dont feel that the game owes me, but i do feel that i deserve the right to access the new area.. i know of noobs that can get in.. i am sure you can forgive me for feeling a little put out by this.

[Karyuu]

I'm not saying that anyone is whining here - I do agree that quest complaints are valid. It's just that having a thread specifically for improvement suggestions of the quest system would actually be a big help :]

[Ozydias]

If anyone would like to make a Wishlist thread on "My Perfect Quest System," please feel free to. It will help out the development team a lot more than the current "This just doesn't work" pattern :] Remember, suggestions make complaints sound a lot better.

Well I would love too, but I don't have the slightest clue on how quest systems work in games.  However, I will post some suggestions that I can:

The quests should not restart for npcs that have more than one quest.  After the time had passed when you can get them again you should have to ask for that certain one again.  Another idea for this is that for npcs who have more than one quest you should be required to finish them all before any of them restarts.  These are just some ideas.  The main point is they should make it simplier to get quests you haven't done.

The npcs should give us a better explaination of why we can't do the quest.  If we say something that doesn't make sense they should tell us.  If enough time hasn't elapsed they should tell us soemthing to that effect.  It is frustrating to not know the exact reason why it is not working.

It would be nice if the quests didn't become bugged.  I have no clue why they do or I would be trying something different.  This game is a work in progress so we must deal with the bugs.  However, this is something that does need fixed sometime down the road for the quests to work smoothly.

There needs to be a lot of work with talking to the npcs.  Like I stated I don't know anything about how hard this is or what it requires.  A system to where the npc says something and than you use his words to continue the conversation would work.  Example:  You can find Harnquist in Hydlaa.  Than you say Where is Hydlaa?
There are many different systems that would work, this is just one expample.  All I know is that the current system for the most part is a complete guess and not being able to say regular phrases to them does make it hard.

[miadon]

I don't have any issues with quests, the only thing I feel is that if some quest rewards are access to new areas, then there should always be alternatives of getting in, as for my character it would be OOC for him to go round doing quests.

Obvioulsy there may be an area thats so secure and locked up that the only way in, is to do a quest, but if thats the case it would be OOC for my character to go there anyway, so it doesn't matter.

[emeraldfool]

I agree with Moony. Why can't we have a new system, with context-sensitive multiple-choice answers or something, like most games?

[steuben]

becuase context sensitve multiple guess menus are harder to write the data for... atleast according to some of the stuff that i've read.

[Janner]

becuase context sensitve multiple guess menus are harder to write the data for... atleast according to some of the stuff that i've read.

Swiming the channel is very hard, but can be done, climbing mountains is very difficult, but can be done, Making a game from scratch is almost impossible for non professionals, BUT hay look are wonderful dev team IS doing it.

Nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it, and have the right tools and person for the job.

[Under the moon]

Gak, no. No multiple choice. That is just putting more words into the mouths of our characters. I have made my suggestions already (on page three, which went unnoticed). Parsing the text and searching for responses or leading questions is a better way to go, and far more organic and natural.

[Krann Omins]

Ok I had to go to work, so the first half of this post will seem out of continuity, as i would like first to reply to Xillix's question & Proteous' reply:--I should first say, I have been playing nearly a year I think it would be THE BEST way/reason to restrict an area if it were the opposite of what proteous suggested: an area only accessible to characters with a certain amount of time in game or existed long enough. And i mentionned i have only been playing under a year to make the point i would fully suppot making it a minimum 2 year character or such.. I think that would not only give the seniority & privelledge these people who have been along for more of the ride have earned. Also, and to me an even more pertinent point, if one day the game were "complete" and there would be no more additions or updates etc; areas locked out by time characters have existed/played leaves the game with that same feeling off novelty & anticipation/suspense that we have become addicted to when there are updates: as seen here where even if it makes us bonkers we love it.

I'm not sure if anyone's mentionned it, not that i'd blame anyone for being hesitant... but a lot of people when their quests bug/break etc, will try to complete the quest with an alt, seeing as they can just get the item from the alt--- mind you i don't do this, i just throw a hissy fit & turn off my comp & resolve not to play ps, then i get bored & turn on ps & resolve never to do quests.... that vow usually lasts from the first day of an update with new quests, till the next one... So instead i buy-- point is-- can a person sell a key or lend a key to the winch? if not I'd be petrified to even try to get the quest for fear if it bugs/breaks i would never be able to enter.. (which ironically would be the same as the result of not trying for fear of that reesult)

not sure what i'd put on the ideal quest ideas list... maybe i'll try when not about to sleep

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Gak, no. No multiple choice. That is just putting more words into the mouths of our characters. I have made my suggestions already (on page three, which went unnoticed). Parsing the text and searching for responses or leading questions is a better way to go, and far more organic and natural.

how can you say unoticed?

 

[Garon]

I should first say, I have been playing nearly a year I think it would be THE BEST way/reason to restrict an area if it were the opposite of what proteous suggested: an area only accessible to characters with a certain amount of time in game or existed long enough. And i mentionned i have only been playing under a year to make the point i would fully suppot making it a minimum 2 year character or such..

if one day the game were "complete" and there would be no more additions or updates etc; areas locked out by time characters have existed/played leaves the game with that same feeling off novelty & anticipation/suspense that we have become addicted to when there are updates: as seen here where even if it makes us bonkers we love it.

Amount of time ingame and/or character age are not necessarily relative, since Garon has existed for a long time (a year or two iirc), since I made him in 0.3.013 (or earlier, this is the last version I remember playing--I do remember when Ojaveda was where BDroad2 is now though, if that tells you anything, and when there was a furnace to the right of the entrance, and smithing didn't work at all), but I'd say I have about as much time as someone who's been playing for a month or two, since I've only been playing Planeshift for that long after I came back, and I didn't play for long earlier.  Garon probably would have come about earlier if I had managed to get the late atomic blue versions to work on my mac at the time I found the game (I've been following this game longer then I've been playing it).  Character respect or the like because of how long a character existed doesn't really measure knowledge of the game  Yet using time ingame seems very OOC to me, since it's a measure of how long you've played the game, and not of a character's respect in the game or the like.

From what I understand there will always be updates (and, again from what I understand, Planeshift won't be even a remotely static world anyways, so there will always be something new), so the claim that it would add new attractions isn't true, I think it would add just a lot of OOC "I need to play for a another 3 months to get into place x so that I can do task y" sorts of ideas in people's playing methods.

---

I think the current quest system just needs to be standardized across all quests, something that I've seen being done, and give us the basic syntax of the quest statements (the way to use about, give me, give, etc.).  I haven't had much trouble with quests once I understood the basic syntax of how to ask for something and how to ask about something, although sometimes I have to resort to trial and error.

[Krann Omins]

you raise some potentilly valid points... but;
Just like a person sometimes must be a documented citizen for x amount of time in reality to get priveledges a, b or c-that said, i think  there is nothing ooc about needing to have existed in some measurable way, as a citizen within certain areas before more secure areas might allow your entry... Time existed or time ingame vs knowledge of the game?-- that's not really the point. Anyone could have been playing the game 4 years & only roleplayed with their one & only friend, and they just do text roleplay so they have no knowledge of the game nor actual relation to the community. It's just a quick &easy way to assess a person's security clearance or such, just like real governments use... Like how when you are X hrs in you can auction or shout, or in the country of my american cousins you can vote when 18 and drink when you are 21 & rent a car at 25, and not be trusted over 30--regardless how many of those years were spent in comas or space shuttles or bomb shelters... Interesiingly certain rights/priveledges can be restricted if not enough time was spent within a place's borders, even tho it's no big to have lived in a cave within the same borders, as long as someone kept your records in order.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Time spent in game is easy to measure, but how valuable that time was is difficult to quantify. Measuring how well a player roleplays a merchant for instance as a means of accessing an area is a very difficult task. It is too subjective, too prone to favoritism. Dealing with access through some systematic means is more reasonable. Players may not like the systems chosen to do so, but should know we are listening to you and give due consideration to ideas that are additive.

About whether the npcs are organic or not, we are commited to improving this. Making decisions on how this is best accomplished from outside the team may miss some crucial aspects of internal developement.

Proteous PS values your contributions, be patient with this new area. Learn how to get in. We did move the goal posts. It is my hope to continue raising the bar as we proceed. I mean this both for the settings team and for the playerbase.

Keep the good ideas coming - save the vinegar for your salad's people.

[Induane]

* Under the moon abandons ever going to the Winch.

NPCs know a bit about keywords, I am assuming. If they could detect certain words out of a phase that they do understand -much like a search engine-, then recycle them back in the from of a leading yes or no question, that would be a giant step towards greater understanding and realism.

Example: to NPC "Hello, Harn, I was on my way to the Magic shop to finish this quest, but got lost. Do you know the way?"

Harn would gather all of the words he understands out of that phrase and plug them into his list of responses, then chose a follow-up question to narrow it down. He knows 'hello' as a standard greeting, so ignores it for now. He knows 'way' 'magic' 'shop' 'quest' 'lost' and 'do you'.  Now, he is obviously not going to understand this question as it is, so he grabs up the words and compares them to his list.

'Quest' and 'do you' would fit in with asking him for a quest, but that is only two words, so gets a low hit number.

'Do you' 'Magic' and 'Way' could lead to info he knows about the Glyphs. Three hits. Getting closer.

'Magic + shop' 'do you' 'way' gives him the cue to give directions, but he is not sure yet, so replies: "Hello there! (as response to your hello) Are you asking the way to the Magic shop?

Now, if you were not asking to go to the Magic Shop, you say no. He then goes back to his list of matches, and asks about the next most likely or asks you for more information on what you want. Even if he does not know what you are talking about, it gives the illusion of intelligence.

But we do want to go to the magic Shop, so we say "Why yes I am."

He picks up on 'why' and 'yes'. Given the question he just asked you, he picks out 'yes' as the keyword, and responds "Well, that's easy, you just go past the old yeller groffel, ya know the one Trayosk used to own. Though come to think of it, he does not have the little beast anymore..."

And yes, I understand how time consuming that would be to create. Perhaps that is what is already intended.

It is odd the UtM's post went largely undiscussed.  At least to me his system sounds very very promising.  It could be done quite easily with a NPC database.  You would need several.  First would be a common knowledge database that all the npc's share.  Then information specific to the npc could be stored in a seperate table.  An interesting option arrises at this point.  It is very difficult to get allllllll the words and phrases ironed out as UtM said, so I had a thought.  For a certain period of time since this game is in testing, and testing is to help improve things,  I propose that the npc's temporarly log all their conversations that are then put into a large DB or text file, wahtever.  Someone could key through it (heck I'd do it) and use that as a reference to add new knowledge to the NPC's knowledge set.  This opens up opportunities later on for NPC's eventually being able to remember phrases that are repeated over and over.  Thus ingame events of notice would be remembered by the NPC's who heard about it.  It would be fun to slay an ulbernaught in the plaza saving countless lives, and then travel to Akkaio only to hear an NPC there ask if you were the famous "Insert your name here" that everyone has been talking about.   Combining manual combing of logs with an eventual system for NPC's to add to their own knowledge database would mean that the stregnth of the NPC dialog system would only grow stronger and stronger. 

In any case it would seem that this idea is far more viable in my opinion than the current system which is so terrible it might as well be removed imho.   UtM has always had a stregnth for very good ideas and it seems strange that I so rarely see them discussed.  Anyways UtM - I'm listening so don't give up!


PS
Also BTW since the winch area is so restricted I've made a few redistributable packages of just the winch area for windows and linux users.  It contains a zip file (.bin for linuxers) that you extract and run.  it contains just enough of the CS libs and the walktest app and the winch file.  This way people can explore it in all its glory without interfering with others.  I don't know if its legal for me to place it for download (well actually I'm sure it is but I'm more interested in whether anyone will be so mad they would care if I do).  So I'll ask around and if its ok I'll post them up in fan art. 

[Vengeance]

What UTM described with the keywords pulled out and what you described with how the npc's log all conversations is very close to how it actually already works.  The issue is the library of known phrases/words, and that the npc doesn't give you clues about what you are missing when quest prerequisites are not met--saying "I don't understand you" as a response is really not a very good design or implementation of anything.  I'm hoping that improves Soon(tm). :-)

What this thread has taught me is that adding maps that are only attainable through certain types of gameplay is very motivational. :-)

- Vengeance