The Winch -- What are they thinking?

[emeraldfool]

* Under the moon abandons ever going to the Winch.

NPCs know a bit about keywords, I am assuming. If they could detect certain words out of a phase that they do understand -much like a search engine-, then recycle them back in the from of a leading yes or no question, that would be a giant step towards greater understanding and realism.

Example: to NPC "Hello, Harn, I was on my way to the Magic shop to finish this quest, but got lost. Do you know the way?"

Harn would gather all of the words he understands out of that phrase and plug them into his list of responses, then chose a follow-up question to narrow it down. He knows 'hello' as a standard greeting, so ignores it for now. He knows 'way' 'magic' 'shop' 'quest' 'lost' and 'do you'.  Now, he is obviously not going to understand this question as it is, so he grabs up the words and compares them to his list.

'Quest' and 'do you' would fit in with asking him for a quest, but that is only two words, so gets a low hit number.

'Do you' 'Magic' and 'Way' could lead to info he knows about the Glyphs. Three hits. Getting closer.

'Magic + shop' 'do you' 'way' gives him the cue to give directions, but he is not sure yet, so replies: "Hello there! (as response to your hello) Are you asking the way to the Magic shop?

Now, if you were not asking to go to the Magic Shop, you say no. He then goes back to his list of matches, and asks about the next most likely or asks you for more information on what you want. Even if he does not know what you are talking about, it gives the illusion of intelligence.

But we do want to go to the magic Shop, so we say "Why yes I am."

He picks up on 'why' and 'yes'. Given the question he just asked you, he picks out 'yes' as the keyword, and responds "Well, that's easy, you just go past the old yeller groffel, ya know the one Trayosk used to own. Though come to think of it, he does not have the little beast anymore..."

And yes, I understand how time consuming that would be to create. Perhaps that is what is already intended.

That sounds all fine in theory, but I could see how it'd easily be a LOT more frustrating than even the system we have now...


[Directions to the magic shop haven't been implemented yet]
"Hello, Harn, I was on my way to the Magic shop to finish this quest, but got lost. Do you know the way?"

"Greetings, friend! I'm afraid, being a blacksmith, I'm not very well-versed in the magical Way. Jayose might know more about it, though. In fact, I have a smithing book I need to return. Would you help me?"

"No thanks. I'm a little lost, and I just need directions to the magic shop."

"You need directions? Where are you headed?"

"I want to go to the goddamn Magic Shop! Y'know, to see Levrus!"

"Levrus? Yeah, he's the owner of the Magic Shop. He's pretty skilled in the different Ways of magic, and he's a devout alchemist. His potions and glyphs are the best around."

"Are you gonna tell me how to get to the magic shop or not!?"

"I can't tell you too much about magic. Ain't my thing. Try talking to Levrus, the magic shop owner"

"FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF- *banned for inappropriate language* 

[Nikodemus]

What UTM described with the keywords pulled out and what you described with how the npc's log all conversations is very close to how it actually already works.  The issue is the library of known phrases/words, and that the npc doesn't give you clues about what you are missing when quest prerequisites are not met--saying "I don't understand you" as a response is really not a very good design or implementation of anything.

UtM idea isn't that new, he or someone else proposed i already in the wishlist over half of a year ago, or so
But it is the exact answer to the problem "I don't understand you" you describe.
Maybe i didn't get whole sense of your post. I just heard that the UtM idea may lead to NPCs asking you things you shouldnt be asked for. But it may be stopped by messages which trigger posible answers concerning some quests ( EDIT: made in wise way, maybe any triggers triggered on wont trigger off, as long as you are near the NPC, but only when you walk away?). But this should count only for quests dialogs, not normal talking to NPC, like getting info about things.

another EDIT

What this thread has taught me is that adding maps that are only attainable through certain types of gameplay is very motivational. :-)

As long as you can communicate with NPCs, because when you can't it takes the motivation away.

[emeraldfool]

Gak, no. No multiple choice. That is just putting more words into the mouths of our characters. I have made my suggestions already (on page three, which went unnoticed). Parsing the text and searching for responses or leading questions is a better way to go, and far more organic and natural.

I didn't mean multiple choice as in:

  "Hey, Harnquist, my man, where's the Magic Shop"
>"Yo, can you teach me about sword making"<
  "Any quests available?"
  Etc. 

I meant:

  Magic Shop
>Sword Making<
  Quests
  Etc.

In other words: You choose the conversation theme, and pretend/RP what your character said. It's the only method that doesn't put words in your character's mouth.

In fact, you could even RP that you threatened Harnquist, or seduced him, or whatever, because it's left to your imagination what you said.

Kinda like in Oblivion.

[Ralleyon]

I'm not saying that anyone is whining here - I do agree that quest complaints are valid. It's just that having a thread specifically for improvement suggestions of the quest system would actually be a big help :]

Actually... I did. Quest/Progress Journal

To tell you the truth, I think Seytra nailed every problem there was to say about the quest system in that post. Even if it's a long read, it's definitely worth it for the people who missed the gist of all the suggestions proposed.

Now, to add a suggestion to this idea once more, let me share my background a little. I've played The Elder Scrolls - Morrowind (single player RPG for those who don't know about it) for a very long time and fiddled a lot with its editor, thus delving into the development tools they used. Other than the game engine, everything there was laid out and one could modify a whole lot of things as the plug-in system basically allowed even the creation of a new computer game based on it (albeit, they would still be bound to the Bethesda EULA). Now, you have to realize that to have a single player so compelling to keep one's interest alive for so long had to be GOOD.

Coming back to our problem... here's how things worked in there.

The was a big database containing all this stuff - standard issue. The difference in the quest system is very little because you also had key-words and predefined phrases and questions as well, the only difference was that they were somewhat laid out and you could simply click on the key-words (instead of guessing them) and follows the steps to get a quest or find out more about the world. Basically it was like PS for dummies

What differs in PlaneShift is the fact that we have to "communicate" somehow with the NPC's in a more natural way, but still following a predefined patterns.

So we have two options:

1. As Under The Moon suggested, we scrap this quest system and pray for a new one which can do a more ellaborate parsing and speech recongnition.

2. Improve the current system with specific emphasis to solving the questing bug which affects the solvability of other quests and...

 - add some form of journalizing so that:
     - the player can see something (besides in his quest notes) what is going on, and pehaps get some hints on what to do next
     - the system always knows when he has finished a quest or in what stage he is in so that it's easier to create alternate paths (..directly from the quest scripts instead of involving the tedious arrangement in the quests table and having to pay attention to everything in it before adding a new quest for fear of interference with another one)

 - the setting team to modify the old quest scripts and the new ones so that emphasis lies on what is to be done and less on guessing phrases but rather on accomplishing the requests

All of this is not very hard actually in terms of implementation, but it's hard work to rewrite everything after that. The settings team will probably have a field day. Only scrap probably and replace with "one heck of a..."

[Jackdaw]

I took a look at this post and then at the posts put up by noobs who can't get out of the death realm. Amazing similarities.

I think it's great that the devs are pushing things in new directions that force all the complacent "senior" players back in to the role of the noob. Maybe you should ask for help fom another player like most everybody recommends to a new player.

I agree the NPC responses to quests are frustrating but I deal with a lot of people in real life that I can't get a straight answer from. Take a deep breath, calm down, relax.

[emeraldfool]

I took a look at this post and then at the posts put up by noobs who can't get out of the death realm. Amazing similarities.

I think it's great that the devs are pushing things in new directions that force all the complacent "senior" players back in to the role of the noob. Maybe you should ask for help fom another player like most everybody recommends to a new player.

I agree the NPC responses to quests are frustrating but I deal with a lot of people in real life that I can't get a straight answer from. Take a deep breath, calm down, relax.

...

We're discussing how to make the system better, it's different. If we all just 'relaxed', the game would never get better (at least, not until it comes out of alpha). I'm not sure which post you're referring to, but your 'input', if I may be so blunt, sucks ass

[Proteous]

Well i have to say, the settings team has done an outstanding balls up regarding the winch. Cryptic comments like 'Aid the government' mean nothing!.. Firstly the gate tells you to go see Raithen.. Raithen as usual has no idea what you are talking about.. so, i thought OK its government stuff, maybe its secret, so, i will build confidence by doing all the official quests. done, and still no joy...
I have now completed 57 quests [Beniua and Hiacheius wont give me thiers or there would be more.] But still not one NPC can tell me anything about the winch. My next thought was to check the library but on the Government shelves there was 1 Tef skin, 1 tin ore, a lake mushroom, a night mushroom and a tef claw.. but NOTHING about the government..

IF anyone at all has worked out how to gain access AFTER it was changed, PLEASE throw us a bone?

[Nikodemus]

Take a deep breath, calm down, relax.

After i cut your head off noob ;P
if you have to zoom, it you didn't get the joke and yo can start laughting now ;> I also hope you don't mind this little offtopic

[Rongar Elani]

If you ask me, the quest system like it is now, is not THAT bad. It only needs abit of adjustment. Asking npcs "about [keyword]" does the job perfectly, if you know what the right keywords are. There are a few quests, in which some npcs tell you, what to say to the npc, you have to see next. That is much appreciated, as it saves you from going nuts, searching for the right keywrods in a text, that takes almost a minute to appear now (in the new version) and repeat the whole precedure, after you asked for the false word. In my opinion, the chat with npcs should work like this:

Player: Greetings.
Npc: Greetings citizen. I am XYZ
Player: How are you?
Npc: I am very well, thank you, but there is something that means a bit of [trouble] to my [sister] and that worries me.
Player: Tell me about your sister. --- (you have chosen one of the 2 keywords in the previous sentence, which unlocks the following)
Npc: My sister is XYZ and she runs the [bakery] in town.
player: Tell me about bakery.
npc: Oooh, the bakery here is the best in whole Yliakum, and i do not only say that, because my [sister] runs it. --- (dead end, go back to other keywords)
Player: tell me about trouble.
Npc: Blah, blah, blah... go to the [bakery] in east-hydlaa and speak to my [sister]. just ask her, if she needs help, she might be willing to pay you for your help.
Player: Alright, bye.
Npc: Goodbye, citizen.

You go to his sister now and just say: "can i help you?", and she tells you, whats up and you get a quest.

Or, if you havent spoken to npc #1 first and you find the bakery and the sister by coincidence:

Player: Greetings.
Npc #2: Greetings. sorry, but i dont really have time for you, as you can see, im very busy with my [bakery].
Player: Tell me about bakery.
Npc #2: I run this bakery for a month now, and [work] is building a pile.
Player: tell me about work.
Npc #2: Oh, i can tell you, blah, blah, blah, i cant do it all by myself, and i really need help.
Player: Can I help you?
npc #2: Oooh please, if you could blah, blah, blah, i would be really thankful. i cannot pay you much, but what i can spare, you shall get. So, will you still help me?
Player: Yes
YOU GOT A QUEST
---------------------------

Player: Greetings.
Npc: Hello there.
Player: How are you?
Npc: Not very well, but i dont know you enough, to tell you, what my [problem] is.
pPayer: Tell me about problem
Npc: no sorry, yet, i do not trust you enough. maybe later. --- (dead end, no quest available yet. byebye)

The game can recognize how wellknown a character is, just by "taking a look" into your questbook.

No quests done:

Player: Hello
Npc: Hello
Player: How are you?
Npc: Fine, fine... stranger (dead end)

Same npc, lots of qusts done:

Player: Hello
Npc: Oh greetings, sir/lady blah.
Player: How are you?
Npc: Well, to be honest, i have a [problem]. and i am sorry to bother you with this, but i have heard very much about you...
Player: Tell me about problem.
Npc: blah blah, blah... will you help me?
pPyer: Yes
YOU GOT A QUEST

Thats what I would like to be the npc chat, the keywords the npcs give you, should be in [] brackets, and yes, there should also be keywords, that lead into a dead end, to make the chat more realistic. However, which keywords are in brackets, and if they are in brackets at all, should depend on your character's intelligence and charisma. Of course, an unskilled character could find the right keywords, simply by trying, or being smart enough to find the right keywords on his own. Personally, i dont see a problem with that, but, referring to another thread here on the forums, PS is a roleplaying-game in which player skills (own intelligence in this case) shouldn't mean anything, only character skills, so why not making the npc-chat and the keywords related to your characters' stats? Inteligence lets the keywords appear in brackets, charismatic characters will not get refused by the npcs and get more keywords and info, maybe a higher reward also. [some more trias than just a friggin octa]

About the timelock, yeah its annoying, but if it is a neccessary thing to have, and if you arrived just after some other player got a quest by a certain npc, i would suggest the chat to be like this:

Player: Hello.
Npc: Greetings.
Player: How are you?
Npc: Not too bad, just a little [problem] i have to deal with.
Player: Tell me about problem.
Npc: I might have something to do for you. come back at 3pm.
Player: Alright, bye.
Npc: Bye.

If there are a bunch of people, who are trying to get this quest, the npc should give out different times for the players to come back. but since the ingame hours arent that short, i would suggest to cap the players to a certain time. (sorry, i dont know how to say, i will give an example:)

Player a gets the message: come back at 3pm
Player b gets the message: come back at 3pm
Player c gets the message: come back at 3pm
Player d gets the message: come back at 3pm
Player e gets the message: come back at 3pm

Player f gets the message: come back at 4pm
Player g gets the message: come back at 4pm
Player h gets the message: come back at 4pm
Player i gets the message: come back at 4pm
Player j gets the message: come back at 4pm

All these players, who are there at the time, they were told to be there, should get this quest, not only one. This will allow to reduce the max amount of players, who are doing the quest at same time to a minimum, and it will tell the players, when to be there, instead of leading them to camping the NPC and spamming.

[Valorius Rageway]

Just to add some things:

Rich characters that would have access to the Winch won't commonly do menial errands for others(Most quests are such)

There's no "underground" way to reach the Winch

If it really depends on maxed Stats as Proteous, it contradicts fully the nature of PS as a roleplay focused game. This quest then is better for a game like *cough* Runescape.

I dispute the very notion that PS is an RP focused game. Clearly the nauture of the leveling system, quests, and PvP denotes that AT MOST it is a 1st/3rd person action-adventure game with a very strong role playing emphasis.

If you just want to solely roleplay, AIM, YIM, or MSN is all you need. For a true role player a chat program would be EVERY BIT as good as the sort of game the devs have actually created.

[eldoth_terevan]

Heh. Valorious has a point. I mean... what's with the arena, then? Also, when the lower-levels open, do players that do not train their characters really have a chance in the Stone Labyrinths?

[Roahn]

I took a look at this post and then at the posts put up by noobs who can't get out of the death realm. Amazing similarities.

This quest and escaping the DR are completely different situations. With the DR, someone can lead you out, or you can just watch where other people go. If you follow the right path, you will escape the DR *every time*. With this Winch quest, you ask for a quest over and over and over for hours, and still some don't get the quest. I have spent almost 3 hours there, asking for a quest, with 3 different characters, and none have gotten the quest. I talked to another person that seems to be there every time I'm there, and as of this morning, he has spent 6 to 7 HOURS trying to get the quest. This is nothing like trying to escape the DR.

-Roahn

[Valorius Rageway]

Heh. Valorious has a point. I mean... what's with the arena, then? Also, when the lower-levels open, do players that do not train their characters really have a chance in the Stone Labyrinths?

For a "true RPer" none of those things are neccesary at all.....as they can go anywhere they wish totally beyond the constraints of the game engine or even reality.

It is that very point that proves beyond any doubt that PS is OBVIOUSLY intended to be very much more than "just" a RPing game. If it wasnt at least partly about leveling, there would be no levels. If it wasn't partially about dueling, there would be no PvP, etc, etc, etc.

And none of these things should even matter to a "True RPer" anyway, as they can still stand in a circle at the tavern and pretend they are astronauts landing on the moon in their chat boxes if they like. These "True RPers" need to understand, this game is NOT all about them. It's as obvious as the crystal above Valorius Rageways head!

[Krann Omins]

Roahn;

No one will get the second quest raithen offers by spamming the same thing over and over. You must take an alternative path.  If you are still sitting there spamming raithen, stop and re-evaluate your approach.

Edit. The Entry to the winch is more difficult than you now assume. Doing the same thing over and over in a loop will not change anything.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Cheers.