Oversight of GM team

[zanzibar]

"Monarchy is fine, so long as you have a good king."


Right now, there's the GM team, there's a GM team leader, and there's Talad.  The GM team is controlled by the GM team leader.  The GM team leader reports to Talad.  There's no problem with this unless a problem develops.  The GM team leader is then put into a position where he or she is responsible for not only solving the problem, but for reporting on the success of solving the problem.  This presents a situation where problems may not be solved or even addressed and word of it won't reach Talad unless someone bugs him, and then it will be that person's word against the word of the GM team leader.

I propose that a new position is created.  This position will be called the "GM team Liaison".  The duties of the liaison is to monitor all things GM related and to keep an eye out for problems.  If problems are found, the liaison will consult privately with the GM team leader to works towards solving it.  If the problem is not solved, the liaison can then go to Talad.  The GM team leader will have the additional duty of making sure the liaison has full access to all relevant information regarding GM activities.

This will safeguard against the problems inherent to self-reporting as the liaison will have no self-interest in the GM team being problem free.

[Syilph]

Hmm... I wonder where did you got that wonderful [but incorrect, however] insight on how the GM team works... The thing is that each GM can talk to Talad directly about certain urgent issues and all the other problems are discussed in meetings.
However, I don't see your point, you are suggesting to have a person who talks to the person that should talk to Talad when the person isn't talking to Talad in person? I'm really confused... How will this Liaison position help in fixing problems? And who is this Liaison "agent"? A GM? A player?

[LARAGORN]

Hmm... I wonder where did you got that wonderful [but incorrect, however] insight on how the GM team works... The thing is that each GM can talk to Talad directly about certain urgent issues and all the other problems are discussed in meetings.
However, I don't see your point, you are suggesting to have a person who talks to the person that should talk to Talad when the person isn't talking to Talad in person? I'm really confused... How will this Liaison position help in fixing problems? And who is this Liaison "agent"? A GM? A player?

Your responce shows why this position is needed.

[Fozzharn]

As for my understanding there is meant a person in a quadrigular relationship to Talad, GM-Team and Players.

Would absolutely make sense ! 

[Syilph]

Actually, I'm just trying to understand what are these "problems" we are talking about. Afaik, if you have a problem that may only be fixed by Talad and you ask the help of a GM and the problem isn't solved because that particular GM didn't "felt the need" to report it to Talad, you can try to report the problem yourself, to Talad directly.
What I understand from this thread is that Zanzibar suggests a second leader of the GM team, and I don't really see the point of having 2 leaders.

Your responce shows why this position is needed.

Your answer is outstandingly clear. What is my "responce" showing? I was just asking some questions about what this Liaison possition means and who and how should be the person in this position since the post isn't very clear. And, of course I was pointing out that this whole thread started from a false assumption on how the GM team works.
And, btw, trust me, I doubt that if a player has a problem and submits that problem trough a petition or talks directly to a GM, that problem will go ignored.
Want to invent positions and to create beurocracy? I bet that will fix problems alot faster [yeah, this statement is ironic]
So, right now the thing works like this: I have a problem, I go to a GM, the GM ignores me [not likely but let's asume that], I go directly to Talad.
With the Liaison position, the situation will be like: I have a problem, I go to a GM, the GM ignores me [not likely, again], I go to the Liaison guy, the Liaison goes to Talad.
Besides, starting from the presumption stated in the opening of the thread, that the GM team leader, and the whole GM team are not impartial, what will be the guarantee that this Liaison person will be absolutely impartial?

[lanser]

So you mean like this?

              Talad
                 |
                 |-----GM Liason
                 |
         GM Team Leader
                 |
                 |
GM#1 GM#2 GM#3 GM#4

I currently work as Tech manager for a group of companies, I have several teams working under me and I report directly to the MD/CEO. To be honest while at first sight it appears to be a reasonable idea when I applied the logic to my position I now have my doubts.

I live and die in my job by my performance and that of the people I am responsible for so to add a second what may have been called a "Political Officer" in the old soviet block to monitor and report on my activities seems an unnecessary increase in bureaucracy and very un-trusting and would probably lead to a very strict and precise adherence to the rules.

And who then monitors the Liaison? a GM Liaison Leader?

[Proglin]

No worries, all's going well. No need to make a fuss about it.

* Proglin puts a pointless stamp on this thread.

[Fozzharn]

I don't think this is pointless.

Let's see it in RL-way comparing with police and government.

The Liason is the policeman visible(!) in the street.

The GM-Team is the police as itself and the GM-Master the Minister/Senator whatever responsible for the Police.

And Talad as Prime Minister / King / Chancellor or what you like ...

Than it works like this:

Talad------Liason
   |        °  |
   |       °   |
   |      °    |
   |     °     | 
   |    °      |
   |   °       |
   |  °        |
   | °         |
GM--------Players
Master
|   |   |
  GM's



as said, not my plan at all, but thats what I understood and what I told "makes sense" !

[Nikodemus]

A graph!

______<_______  |                        |  |       Talad------Liason  |      °   | °      °  |  |    °     |   °   °   |  | °        |     °°    |  |°         |  Rome  | GM's      |    °  °   |  | °        |   °    °  |  |   °      |  °      ° |  |     °    | °        °|  |    Master GM--Players  |                       |  |_____>_______|

-As you can see all the roads are leading to rome, well, most of them ;P -Gm's are free to speak to talad without speaking to GM master, it is as they wish -The GMs has direct impact what players may do and what they cant, they are like inquisition, and only few are brave enoug to use their fingers and strike back!... -It is where Liasons come into the death game of survival. Players, through Liasons may hit back the GMs and police them the same ways! Viva revolution! welll, something like that ;P

EDIT: Sorry, i don't play enough to have problems with GMs, but fact is the monarchy works well, as long everything is right ;P And if some GMs can't be honest (we are all humans) the player has a problem. and i gues its why the Liasons idea, so that they won't have personal reasons to ignore the harmed player... But, are GMs really that dishonest to not trust them? I really don't know and never experienced, but i didn't have much chances too

[bilbous]

I think the problem is not so much with the GMs but with players who think they are always right and do not realize the being right is not always enough. They may very well be right in any given instance but if they are being right about something that should be different than it is, for example a policy such as GMs only teleporting players to the DR, but isn't officially the way that they want it, they want the ability to force their vision on the game hierarchy. I really do not see any way this proposal can work. Talad will only give up as much control as he sees fit and I do not see him giving himself a headache like this unless it is nothing but a lightning rod that draws away complaints. Of course I do not know the man and cannot, in any event, speak for him.

[Suno_Regin]

Think of zanzibar this way...every time he learns a new word, he makes a post of it.

Word of the day is *drumroll*...liaison!

[emeraldfool]

quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


I think having someone to watch over the GMs can only be a good thing. (So long as they have a decent sense of humour )

Someone who has access to all the tells to and from GMs, and who's primary duty is to make everything's handled fairly.


I'm inclined to agree with everyone that there is a substantial amount of self-importance and egomania among certain GMs 

[Proglin]

Let me rephrase...

our actions are being watched and so are our /tells and whatnot.

we are as cocky as any random person, just there's a spotlight on it.

Plus the way it's organised works for the ones that have to work with it.

[Karyuu]

Monitoring /tells is just silly. However, sometimes there are problems between GMs themselves, not GMs-players - and these not always get taken care of soon enough or well enough (in my personal opinion).

What I'm getting from Zanzibar's suggestion is someone would "evaluate" the performance of the team on a daily or weekly basis. And frankly, I would agree that such a thing has been needed in the past.

The GMs will understand what I'm talking about. It's a sort of quality control.

[zanzibar]

Want to invent positions and to create beurocracy? I bet that will fix problems alot faster

Micromanagement is worse, especially given how busy Talad's life is.

Hmm... I wonder where did you got that wonderful [but incorrect, however] insight on how the GM team works... The thing is that each GM can talk to Talad directly about certain urgent issues and all the other problems are discussed in meetings.
However, I don't see your point, you are suggesting to have a person who talks to the person that should talk to Talad when the person isn't talking to Talad in person? I'm really confused... How will this Liaison position help in fixing problems? And who is this Liaison "agent"? A GM? A player?

The liaison can approach Talad if talking to the GM team leader doesn't fix things.

GMs might not be aware of everything that's going on because they're by and large responsible for themselves.  Also, whistleblowers have the problem of facing the backlash of their actions.

Actually, I'm just trying to understand what are these "problems" we are talking about.

This is not about merely solving current problems.  This is about solving problems in the future.

The liaison would not be a leader of the GM team.  The liaison would not boss people around, tell people what to do, or do any work for the GM team.  The liaison would simply monitor what's going on and consult with the GM team leader and Talad as needed.

And, btw, trust me, I doubt that if a player has a problem and submits that problem trough a petition or talks directly to a GM, that problem will go ignored.

It's nice that you doubt that, but from personal experience, problems can be ignored for months if not indefinately.

With the Liaison position, the situation will be like: I have a problem, I go to a GM, the GM ignores me [not likely, again], I go to the Liaison guy, the Liaison goes to Talad.

No, you would go to the GM team leader or to Talad.  The liaison would exist to monitor GM activities from the inside.

Besides, starting from the presumption stated in the opening of the thread, that the GM team leader, and the whole GM team are not impartial, what will be the guarantee that this Liaison person will be absolutely impartial?

The liaison would not be a GM, not be subordinate to the GM leader, not be a peer among the GMs, not do any work for the GM team, and would not be responsible for unsolved problems.  The GM team leader does not take orders from the liaison.  Therefore the liaison would have no vested interest in the GM team being problem free, and therefore the liaison would have no vested interest in hiding problems.

And who then monitors the Liaison? a GM Liaison Leader?

And who currently monitors the GM team leader?  The difference is that the liaison has nothing to gain by hiding or inventing problems.

No worries, all's going well. No need to make a fuss about it.

* Proglin puts a pointless stamp on this thread.

If you say so.

Sorry, i don't play enough to have problems with GMs, but fact is the monarchy works well, as long everything is right ;P And if some GMs can't be honest (we are all humans) the player has a problem. and i gues its why the Liasons idea, so that they won't have personal reasons to ignore the harmed player... But, are GMs really that dishonest to not trust them? I really don't know and never experienced, but i didn't have much chances too

"As long as everything is right" is the key.  Problems can and do happen.

I think the problem is not so much with the GMs but with players who think they are always right and do not realize the being right is not always enough. They may very well be right in any given instance but if they are being right about something that should be different than it is, for example a policy such as GMs only teleporting players to the DR, but isn't officially the way that they want it, they want the ability to force their vision on the game hierarchy.

I'm glad you posted this.  Because in reality, the rules say that GMs are allowed to teleport players to places other than the Death Realm if the player is the victim of a verifiable bug.  What you just said is a good example in support of my suggestion.

Think of zanzibar this way...every time he learns a new word, he makes a post of it.

Word of the day is *drumroll*...liaison!

Aren't you banned yet?